yekta

iTrader: (8)

Hi guys, I have 99 z28 and I want to have the best possible handling with cheap stuff. What would u guys advise me. Btw if shocks,springs,anti-sway bars are same brands, doest it make handling more efficient?

TY

Poik

Probably the cheapest way would be Eibach Pro-Kit and Bilstein HD shocks. That and some 1LE sway bars would be somewhere around $600. Or you could also just do a 1LE kit, but the performance would not be the same. You can get 4 1LE springs, 4 1LE DeCarbon shocks, and a front 1LE sway bar for $189 from http://www.gyrhead.com/special.htm.

Are you from Kirkland, WA?

obZidian

iTrader: (2)

imo, and this is my personal view on it, you could make any budget car handle nicely.

but, i wouldnt rely on cheap parts. Properly engineered parts arent cheap yet hopefully not expensive. They're a few members that fabricate their own parts which seem to be the way im headed.........sometimes the big brands and not all, tend to over price their parts just to maintain a balanced budget.

if i were you, save up enough and dont just go and buy without searching around......

Search for a member who goes by trackbird, he has a great site on info that is helpful. He also engineers his own parts that seem to be better than some that ive seem.....

good luck

e

Judd

iTrader: (1)

Get some lowering springs used {buy whatever you want,, everyone has a spring rate preference},,, then try to find some low mile SLP valved Bilsteins. Later buy a used 35mm front bar, keep the stock rear for now. Add a good adjustable rod-ended panhard bar {go ahead and spend some bucks on this}. Used set of 17X11s and buy some Nitto 555Rs to mount up. If you take it slow,,, you can find some pretty decent deals around here. For the most part, sway bars and springs don't wear out and you will save alot buying them used.

I bought a used set of Eibach Pro-Kit LT1 springs {they are a bit stiffer than the LS1 springs} and a used set of SLP Bilsteins for something like 300 or 350 bucks. I bought the front 35mm bar new for around 150 bucks or so. The Panhard bar cost me something like 150-200 bucks or so. It felt great, a huge improvement over stock for around bucks. I have since upgraded to a different set up but that original buch of parts were pretty good for the money.

If you decide to buy new stuff,,,, get the SLP revalved Bilsteins over the regular HDs. They have a bit more rebound and are generally near the same price. If you can afford a bit more,,,, try Strano's revalved Bilsteins.

If you are not running {and don't forsee running} 315s in the rear,,, you could put off buying the panhard bar but I actually seemed to feel an improvement when I installed mine. If you are running 315s or will be running 315s in the future,,,, you will need an adjustable PHB.

There is a site that has quite a bit of usefull info on spring rates and shock valving. I used to have it in favorites but aparently I've deleted it, if anyone knows the site,,, please throw a link up. If you are going to buy it new,,,, buy it right the first time and it will be cheaper in the long run.

yekta

iTrader: (8)

ThAnk you for your all answers men, yes I m from kirkland WA
you?

Poik

Up in Edmonds . Do you go racing when the season is open? You should join us.

yekta

iTrader: (8)

Should I?? Of course Why not!!! I also have a roommate with 04 subaru sti
it can be funny

Greed4Speed

iTrader: (7)

Tokico HP shocks. Cost less that Bilstein HD's. Got a set delivered to my door for under $300.

They're not popular with f-bodies but they are with imports and come stock on the Mach I and Cobras.

yekta

iTrader: (8)

I ve heard tokico a lot but u re the first person who recommends them

Greed4Speed

iTrader: (7)

Ask for exhaust suggestions and not many will recommend Mufflex. Its because the f-body masses have not tried them.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

That's because the don't work as well or last as long as Bilstein's do.
Mach 1's and Bullitt's come with them, that's true. And as soon as someone wants to make them handle the come off. The 2000 Cobra R used specially valved Bilstein's......

I sell Tokico (and used them myself on an old Z-car). They worked fine there, but were not so great compared to the other things available when I tried them on both a 3rd gen and 4th gen car. FWIW. Although better than stock, not good enough when you can get a lot better for not a lot more.

yekta

iTrader: (8)

thank you very much sam. Thats what I wanted to hear I ll go with bilstein shocks!

Greed4Speed

iTrader: (7)

Ok, yes you can get Bilsteins for about $100 more, but from everything I've read posted by you and others they are marginal even for stock spring rates, so why spend extra cash there. You're contradicting yourself on them. Are they good or are they marginal? Revalves, well thats a debate on if they're worth it and there is NO warranty on them plus the extra fee of revalving. Form what I've seen 2 revalved Bilsteins cost more than my set of Tokicos. Koni, 1 strut costs more than my set.

I have no doubt you know your stuff and mean the best, but not everyone is building a suspension for actual competition. IMO this is like getting someone to run a 750 Dominator when any 750 double pumper would work fine for their application.

Yetka, I'd suggest doing a search for posts by mitchntx and talking to others to get more than one opinion, unless it mirrors what you want to hear and you care to go no further.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I think the point is that the valving on the Tokico's is not any better than the bilstiens and they don't hold up as well. So the bilsteins, though not perfect, are better all the way around. It's a matter of degrees. The Tokico's are better than stock, but not great shocks. The Bilstiens are better than that and are great shocks, but the valving is not exactly as it could/should be for the camaro/firebird platform.

Revalves are not debated by many of the autocross/road race crowd, they are well liked and are working well and often on winning cars. They are a way to get "koni performance on a budget". The Bilstien shocks are very well made and with some tuning, become excellent performance shocks. Is it required? It depends on your expectations. I am running Koni DA's all the way around. I say this to explain that I didn't believe that Koni shocks were worth it until I put them on the car....the change was amazing. Revlaves are something that you may not fully appreciate until you drive on a set of them. We recently upgraded a freinds Mustang to Tokico's (the Bullitt package) that were custom valved for Fords bullitt kit. It was an improvement over stock. He drove it for a while and then put a Cobra IRS under it. The IRS needed new shocks and he added Koni's (SA's) all the way around and found that it was "a new car". My friend didn't believe the difference until he drove both on his car, back to back. He understands the benefits of properly valved shocks now.....

I understand your concern about the cost. And anyone who doesn't know Sam may think he's offering these parts and just expect that he's trying to sell them to you. The funny thing about Sam (known by those of us who have worked with him to get parts) is that he often will not sell you what you ask for, just the parts of the setup that you actually need. The last time I called Sam for something, he wouldn't sell it to me (ok, if I demanded it, he would have, but he talked me out of a bad idea and he's done it to others...and in the end, it was a bad idea for my car as I learned later). So, you may be surprised to find that even though Sam makes a living in this business, he is not known for pushing parts on people to get a sale, he's known to talk you out of stuff you don't need or that won't help. He'd rather save you money and help you fix your problem than "take your money".

Only you can decide what you expect from your car and how far you want to go. Once you decide that part, Sam will be happy to help you achieve those goals.

My thoughts.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

So your saying because I don't feel a Bilstein HD is absolutely the *BEST* one could do, that the extra gains gotten from them over a Tokico isn't worth it? I would disagree.

Using you carb analogy, We'll say that Revalves are the Dominator, HD's are the Double Pumper. It'd rate the Tokico's as a 650, and the stock shocks are a 500. Though, unlike running too much carb, running better shocks doesn't cause driveability issues.

I'm not saying Tokico's are terrible. They are better than stock. But for the relatively small price difference between them and a Bilstein, there is no way I'd EVER recommend a Tokico over a Bilstein for this car. I'm not talking about Revalves either, I'm speaking only of HD's for the situation I feel they are warranted.

There isn't much debate on whether Revalves are worth it from those who have run them, or understand why and how they work vs. an HD. The only debate comes from those who have not experienced the difference, or understand why the difference is so. A perfect example is Trackbird's post about the Mustang from stock (also Tokico btw, to the "special" Bullitt Tokico's, to Koni's).

Greed4Speed

iTrader: (7)

Original post: "I want to have the best possible handling with cheap stuff."



I'm not trying to say Sam is trying to push his products. I didn't mean to portray that at all. I don't think that about him, but he's coming at this from a totally different angle than 90% of the drivers on the street. A lot of the guys I've seen out there that have these set ups never run on a road course or autoX. They slap the stiffer suspension stuff on for looks and bragging rights and then wonder why they can't hook up when they drag. Or they're like me and just like to drive aggresively on curvy roads once in a while and will never notice the difference the rest of the time.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Cheap is relative. The "best" and "cheap" aren't exactly co-existing. You get what you pay for. And like Trackbird says, I'm not one for recommending expensive crap just for the hell of it. If something less expensive works and does what I need, then fine. The shocks aren't one of those things.

You would notice the difference if you experience it. Trouble is, you have to understand why there is a difference to consider it. Or alternatively get a ride in car that has better dampers on it.

FWIW, my setups are among the softest in the rear of anyone's (usually). And if they drag race, we discuss the options. Is dragging more important than corner carving? Is lowering a priority? Things like that. And if drag racing is the priority with more than competent street handling (and lowering is nice, but not a deal breaker), I recommend stock springs and the good shocks. That will handle and ride better than lowering springs with mediocre shocks, and launch better too because you aren't stiffer than you want in the rear.

I think you might be falling into the same trap as some others. Maybe you are assuming that because I autocross and win, that I suddenly have no idea or care about street driving. That's stereotyping, and just not true. I'm sure the majority of my customers are not racers, and I routinely drive my car on the street. I drove it to NYC, South Florida last year (towing a 4x8' trailer too) for races. If someone is interested in a particular thing, that's what we work with. It's why, unlike a lot of other vendors, I carry such a big variety of parts. You need options for different results.

In the end, I think you are trying to defend your purchase more than anything. That's ok, but I think you could have done better. It's my humble opinion. You might not have known it, or believe it, or even care. That's fine too, but I think Yetka deserves to hear the opinion of someone who's tried many, many setups. Individual opinions are also very valuable, but also have be taken into context. It's the "never know until you try" thing.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Compared to my Koni DA's, Bilstien HD's are an absolute bargain (super cheap). The question is, what do you consider cheap? $50, $500, $1,500? I'd consider Bilstien shocks to be "cheap" (inexpensive, not cheap as in crap), you may not. Heck, you can get "cheap" shocks at your local auto parts store. They won't do much for handling, but if they meet your standards and do everything you ask, then they are cheap and "perfect" for you. But, until you try something better, you'll not know how good it can be. That's the difference.

Everyone here has different levels of experience and most have tried different things. Some have tried many things, and some have tried almost everything. If I put springs on my car and "parts store" shocks and it was the best handling car I've ever driven, I'd tell everyone that I found "the setup", some Monroe Sensa-Trac shocks and a Pro kit or whatever. Then, I'd wind up in a car like Sams with Koni's or custom Bilstiens on it and be amazed at how much better it is than the car with the "parts store special" shocks and a pro kit (not that there is anything wrong with a pro kit, they can work very well for many applications), so then I tell everyone that the best setup is koni's/custom bilstiens and such as Sam runs. Then I get in another car setup with differen't springs and Koni DA's. I may or may not like the DA's better, they are more expensive and are excellent shocks, but if they are adjusted wrong, they will not meet their potential. So, I may or may not like the Koni DA car and it or the Koni/custom Bilstien setup will be the "best ever" that I've ridden in or driven. It's a matter of what you've tried. You probably won't recommend my setup to anyone only because you've not tried it. If you did, you may love it and call it "the best", or, you may not. Meaning, it's hard to pass judgement on revlaves or a $1,500 set of DA's until you've actually tried them (I'm not saying you need DA's). Once you try it, you may change your mind, or you may not. That's all we're trying to say. You need to set a budget and your performance expectations forward and build the car accordingly. Every car is different and every driver is different. Some people would not notice the difference between my car, Sam's car, and a stock camaro to drive them all. They just can't "feel" the difference, others can tell when a shock is not adjusted properly and it will bother them until fixed (I've done that, I found out that I forgot to set the rebound in one shock and the car felt very good, but slightly "floaty", it was the one rear shock with no rebound adjustement since I forgot to adjust it). It all comes down to your goals and experience.

Greed4Speed

iTrader: (7)

I'm just saying that the masses would be just as happy with something less. Why do you think so many people run LCA's and PHB's with bushings instead of spherical rod ends? There are people that run the AGX's and love them. The Grand Am community only has KYB GR-2s or Monroe Sensitracs to chose from and they run them with H&R & Eibach springs and love them.

My purchase was about economics and necessity as I'm sure it is with others at times. Sometimes better isn't needed or can't be afforded. Kind of like going with an LS6 cam instead of a custom grind. Ya, I could have spent $150 more, but that is cash I could use elsewhere right now and I got tired of bouncing and wanted better than stock. If I had the cash I'd go coil-over

All that said, I still wouldn't spend over $500 for a full set of struts/shocks just like I'd see no reason to buy the baer break kit or for a daily driver.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I understand that you have a $500 limit on shocks. If that's where you want to draw the line, that is absolutely your decision (and not a bad one if you can get what you want in that range). However, it's not fair to answer Yekta's question by trying to inform him that nobody should ever spend over $500 (you haven't said it, but you are biased that way from your posts). If you can get performance that you are happy with for $500 (and many people can, I'm not saying it's a bad thing), then you will save a lot of money compared to me. I'm not trying to convince everyone that they should spend $1500 on shocks. But I am the opposite extreme. I do have a full set of Koni DA's on my car and I just had the rears rebuilt for a cost of $570 (on top of the cost to buy them in the first place). So, I've got a small fortune in my shocks. Do you have to do what I did? Nope. It's not necessary and isn't absolutely required. But, if you are inclined to spend the money, it is not a bad way to go (depending on what you want to do). I now have $2,000 worth (ok, not worth, but that's what it would cost to buy them and then rebuild and shorten the rears) of shocks on my car (cost plus rebuild costs). Would I do it again? Sure would.

I'm not really disputing the shock issues here. I'm just trying to get everyone to take an open minded look at their posts. You will generally try to convince people that your way is the best. This is for a few reasons. You (not you, but a generic "you") hate to think you bought stuff that is not very good (not that it's junk, just that it's "good enough") and therefore will often push people towards your choices. That's not unusual. I'm just asking everyone to be open minded about parts and to realize that there is a difference and you often do get what you pay for. Meaning, don't attack someone or something (or "push back") because you don't like it, but have never tried it. If you try it and hate it, that's a different story. There is a difference between "better isn't needed" and "better can't be afforded". If you can't afford it, you buy the best you can afford and work with it, but don't talk someone out of going beyond where you did because you didn't think it was needed (or you talked yourself out of it due to cost). That's all I"m asking. I don't doubt that you could have spent more money and what you bought was the right choice for you when you did it and maybe still. Just don't try to talk others into your decision for the wrong reasons.

Many run poly LCA's and PHB's. And often we see those who figured out the difference and want to change to something better. It happens with almost all parts. Cams, many guys swap cams, some are on their 4th or 5th (or more) cam in their car. Just looking for what they want. You don't always get it right the first time and there can be room for improvement.

Anyway, this all goes back to being your decision. You have to decide what is good enough or what is the budget and work within those boundarys. There are very real differences in shock performance and you can get almost anything you'd like. You just have to know what you want.

My thoughts.