absolut_speed

iTrader: (1)

Mitch and Garrett pretty well hit it on the head. Just because the answer isn't what you wanted to hear, doesn't mean your question wasn't answered, or that we misunderstood you. You're not the first one to come in this forum and be unhappy to not get the answer you expected to hear either.

Considering the significant amount of time Mitch and John have spent open tracking, and I have several hours of actual track time myself, what makes you think we don't know what's best when we say worry about the driver and brakes first?

1) you're not going to have a bad day at the track or have any diminished fun because you didn't buy any of those items in your original post
2) I have no problem saying that spending time working on your driving skills will net you 10 times the amount of time those parts will
3) all those parts would easily buy you 2 more track days which is nearly invaluable in comparison
4) if you really want to stick through the turns, I haven't seen you mention anything about a wheel & tire package. Besides brakes, that's where there's real time to pick up.
5) in the off chance you don't like it, or find it's too risky to chance permanently losing your car to the track, why buy $1,000 worth of stuff that's not going to be fully utilized or not work for taking to the strip?
6) assuming you have a blast, and want to do this more, then you'll truly need to decide whether you want the car to be built for open tracking/rr or for the strip. There really isn't room to compromise. The more you get into it, the more you'll later regret buying "compromise" parts that hold you back. We all dream of a super car capable of all things, but the reality is you're cheating yourself in two forms of motorsports rather than cheating yourself in one and excelling in another.

absolut_speed

iTrader: (1)

I'll just add as a final point, that at my last open track event, I ran a car that had the following mods: 35mm front sway bar, Koni shocks, pads, rotors and Toyo RA1 tires on stock wheels. Now I know at this point you're wondering how I could possibly take such a woefully prepared car out on the track. Now I didn't get passed that day in my run group, and in a combined group, I didn't get passed, passed a Z06 and I kept up with a Z06 on CCW's w/Hoosier slicks. If I hadn't overdriven the car trying to close in on the guy, there's a good chance I'd have passed him. So you can have all the eqpt you want, it doesn't mean you're going to be fast. A signature full of mods isn't going to make you fast on the track, where it counts. Besides, the less mods you have, the more excuses you have.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I do want you tobe safe.

But you have a choice. The guy you plow into because you overdrove a "safe" car didn't.

Watch this video ...

http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/viperattack.mp4

It's a testament to how fast things can happen and what can happen when on the track with an ***-clown.

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

ok again i see what your saying. but the thing is, i'm not going to go fast or push my car to the limit, i'm not going to race competetivly, i'm not going to be racing with others on the track, i'm not planing on doing this thart frequently. my car just has alot of miles and the bushings are very worn, so i thought "hey, while i'm in there ill replace my suspension with some better parts. hmmm i want the right ones tho. better ask the guys on ls1tech". thats all! i'm not going to be flooring it and drifting all over the track to try to get a good time and end up flipping my car! i just want a good setup. again as ive said a few times, i know i'm not the best driver in the world, i know my limit, and i know my cars limit, and i dont plan on aproaching either of those. i just want a good shock/spring combo. you guys are the most knowlagable on this subject so i'm asking you. please by all means, recomend tires, tire presures, and brakes. but just know that i want one simple question answered because i want to tackle this one step at a time. once i get this stuff on, ill start another post about brakes/tires/pressure/etc. but in this thread, i just want my question answered. thank you

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

oh and BTW i'm going to be racing in a miata for the first few times, just so i dont put my car in danger of a learner. lol.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Spec Pinata?

You can post all you want that you aren't gonna push the car, drift through corners and hual butt ... we know better.

Said that, Been there, Done that ...

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Mitch is right, nobody heads to the track for a Sunday drive..... If you don't plan to drive somewhat aggressively, then why go to the track at all?

The other problem is that everyone has a slightly different style. Meaning, I may hate Mitch's car and he may hate mine. Absolute Speed may hate both of them (he's already has "issues" driving mine.... ), etc. My setup may not work for you. I'm guessing that one of the 3 would, or parts of all 3 could, etc. Once you drive the car and find the things you don't like, we can help you change them. But, if we get it "wrong" and you go to the track with a car that is a bit nervous and that you're not comfortable with (like my current setup), you could wind up in a wall. The stock setup is "safe".

If you must spend money/upgrade, buy shocks. They have the most impact on the feel of the vehicle. Then, get an alignment.

absolut_speed

iTrader: (1)

You first started the thread by saying you were road racing, then it was open tracking with maybe some competition later down the road. Now it's with no one on the track (and I'd like to know where you're getting non-competitive track time with no one else on the track) and from the way your post goes on later, it seems like you're doing some parade laps after you drive a Miata. So I have no problem amending my prior statement to now say yes, you're confusing me.

As Trackbird noted, why pay to go and attempt to beef up the car if you have no intention of driving hard? No, you don't have to, nor should you go 100% or even 95%, but you have to keep pressing yourself inch by inch to learn. Plus, you say that now, but once you get out there on the track, you'll think different and want to see what you and the car can do.

Okay, let's say you want to ignore all of our advice so far, though most of us seem to be delivering a fairly common theme, which doesn't always happen (so that right there should tell you something).

First, I guarantee that Mitch, Trackbird and John will all give you different recommendations on shocks and springs, though all three will speak from lots of varied experiences.

Second, I guarantee that if you listen to any of them or myself (which I'd defer to those guys anyway) and you want springs and shocks for $500-600 as you previously requested, you're hosed. It's just not going to happen unless you go out into the used market, and who wants used shocks with an unknown history unless you plan on having them rebuilt?

Third, I hope to heaven your $5-600 mark doesn't include install, or does involve you doing the install. You can go ahead and add $200 for install if you don't do it yourself.

Does that answer your question?

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Excellent info in those words of wisdom above. Yes, you want a cookie cutter setup and that just doesn't exist.

Handling is a very personal thing ... a comfort zone, knowing , WITH CONFIDENCE, where the edge is, feeling where it is and then reigning it back in. As Kevin eluded to, with a bunch of performance suspension parts, the window of oppurtunity to recover from a venture into 11/10s becomes smaller and smaller.

A good handling car handles great at track speeds under track conditions. It might absolutely suck on the hiway.

All any of us are telling you is ...

AFTER you get some comfort behind the wheel, then look and listen to what your car is telling you. Then and only then, begin swapping stock parts for aftermarket.

You ahve said time and time again that you have some worn out parts that need replacing. Well, replace them.

Just like with a motor, a tried and true measuring stick is to establish a baseline on a dyno. This allows you to analyze modifications to see where you have come and where you need to go.

Tuning a suspension is not unlike tuning a motor.

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

ok i see what your saying. so do you think i skould take my car to the track stock first? do you think its a good idea to practice on a miata before i drive the camaro on the track? i was told that i shouldnt push the car 100% the first time i go out, so i'm not going to. thats what i was trying to say.

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

look this is a street car. i just want a good compromise between street/track

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

If you have access to a Miata, drive it. Others may not agree (but they probably will), but you'll see driver improvement in a Miata. Meaning, in a high hp car (like ours), you can drive backwards through every corner and still make up a considerable amount of time on the straights (no, not all of it, but you understand the point). So, you can be (potentially) very inconsistent and still running similar lap times (not that I'm suggesting you take lap times at your first event, you are probably better off not to). Also, a Miata is a low hp car with good balance and grip. Every corner you "miss" (off line, too slow, etc) will hurt you for most of the lap. So, in order to turn good lap times (you'll start to see it in your corner exit speeds and at the end of the straights if you goofed somewhere), you need to drive, you can't make it up with HP. This is a good training tool, you'll learn to conserve speed (you want to carry speed, you cant just floor it and "make up time"). Also, being low hp cars (don't take that to mean "no fun", they can be very fun) you have less chance of making a mistake at 150 mph (you will be carrying far less speed in most cases). It's a very good car to do a track day in, I think you'll have an amazing amount of fun in it.

And, nobody plans to push their car 100%, but it does happen. You get into a corner too hot and wind up "in trouble". Or, you get comfortable and can get in trouble quickly. Tape a sticker (post it note?) on the dash that says "Smooth" or "Slow" or some combination of the above to remind you not to just crank on the wheel, keep your inputs smooth to avoid upsetting the chassis and to keep yourself "calm". That may do more for your driving than any parts you can buy.

And, have fun. (See, we're not trying to be big meanie heads, but we are trying to keep you out of trouble and help you avoid common pitfalls). You'll get plenty of help as soon as you know what you need (that will make more sense in the very near future).

absolut_speed

iTrader: (1)

Well put.

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

ok i see. thanks. there is one thing i am conserned about tho. the camaro is alot more tail happy out of turns, and that scares me alot. i'm not saying ive never let it loose, but on a race track....at those speeds, i need to have good grip. now why am i bringing this up? well, thats a big difference with the miata, it is alot eisier to drive and doesnt brake loose as much. i hear that if i use a larger fromt sway bar and keep the stock rear one, that this will help me out a bit. i dont want to go learn, get used to the miata, then go off the track cuz i was not used to as much power on a track you know what i'm sayig...?

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

t t t

pimpmaro

Your car will respond with varying degrees of "looseness" depending on your front and rear swaybars, your spring rates, etc etc. The important thing to remember is that it's a very very personal perference in how a car is set up. Listen to these guys. They've been around awhile and I don't know any of them to be stupid. If you start with a stock setup, then it's a lot easier to say, "well... I want to tighten up the car a bit" or "well... I want it to rotate a bit more" and adjust from there.

BTW, Kevin, I really like that "SLOW" sticker idea. I'll slap one on your dash for the next AutoX.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

You can't write "SLOW" in large enough print to affect me anymore....lol.

And, a "loose" car is a function of both the car and the driver. I've seen it in person. One driver has a car that just pushes like crazy, another driver tries it and winds up spinning it.....the same car. How? Throttle control is everything and you can mishandle it and spin it. The driver can make it loose, and so can the setup. When you start running the Camaro, just be gentle and remember "Smooth" and that applies to the throttle input as well.

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

ok cool thanks alot for your help. i guess ill go to the track with the more generic mods listed in my first post, then see how i want it changed, then get back to you. is that ok? i mean i realy want a lower stance and better handling. how much were the coilovers you were talking about...just for hahas...

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Don't feel so bad about not being able to be like the hotshot racers on this board, yet. I am pretty much in your situation as well. Like most sports, it takes practice as well as time, money, and safety precautions. If I had to choose, practice is the one I like the most, but saftey is the one we all need. Once you learn the limits of an OEM suspension in good condition, then the decision on "what's next then becomes more logical, if not easy." You also become more patient with what you will do, as the time involved in configuring your vehicle becomes paramount compared to upgrading with brand names and magazine specs.

And a big thanks to mitchntx and trackbird. Without your knowledge, I would've wasted my money as well as myself. That video not only demonstrates what I've witnessed on a Road Course, but several times a month on the highway. I commute from my home in San Diego to work in Irvine, and I have witnessed drivers like this on the I-5 more times than I care to admit.

HPP

Great advice guys. A good thread.

Not to through a monkey wrench into it, but.... while I understand what you are saying about safety and car limits, I'm a little unsure about the analogy. In it, we have an imaginary absolute limit (the "edge") and before that we have a virtual line (car limit), and the idea mentioned is that with the line further from the edge, you can go past the car's limit but not "fall off". I'm not quite sure I see that one. Isn't the cars limit, the edge? If going past the car's limit isn't the worst that can happen, then what is? I guess to me it's a little like WWII fighters all having 100% throttle and "War Emergency Power" (110%) - well, which is 100% really? And when looking at "top speed at full power" charts, which are they talking about? (not a perfect analogy, but I hope it's close enough lol)

And... having said that, is a Corvette stock set up more dangerous on a track for the inexperienced? If not, doesn't it handle "better" than an F-Body?

Again, I agree with the intent of your posts and am not trying to argue or undermine, just curious.