hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

i'm going to sy that a vette would be better for the track for a learner b/c it handles better and was designed with road racing in mind.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Good point HPP ...

MY PERSONAL DEFINITION OF THE EDGE is where the car and/or driver and/or track is applied at it's peak of performance ... best possible lap times are achieved.

Going beyond the edge is 2/4 wheels off, the rear kicks out in a slide, the rear wags under heavy braking, lighting the tires exiting a corner, etc. ... going beyond the "edge" is possible and recovery is possible as well.

But, the more "tweaked" the car becomes (HP, suspension, tires, experience) the quicker the edge approaches and the further beyond it you go ... hence the window of oppurtunity for recovery becomes smaller and smaller.

MY DEFINITION ...

Every car platform has it's quirks. A Porsche, for example, is world renowned for it's "handling". But they are very susceptible to snap oversteer. A Vette is a very stable platform and relatively easy to drive.

Is it more dangerous? Probably not ... but I've never driven a Vette on the track, so I don't know ...

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

i am so affraid of snap oversteer!!!!!!!

DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

This post has a lot of good information and should be made a sticky so it wont get lost. "The newbs guide to road racing"

pimpmaro

HPP, mitch is absolutely right. You do make a good point, and so does he. I don't think I can add any to what either of you have made note of, but I would like to clarify a bit. The more capable the car is, the more of a handful it will be when it does step over the edge to 11/10ths. You mentioned aircraft as an example. The limits of getting yourself in trouble are always reliant on the aircraft, regardless of whether you're in a cessna 172 or a MiG-15. However, the MiG will get you in trouble a lot faster, and usually it's a lot more difficult to correct the situation in a MiG. The Cessna will also stall and spin, but it's a more forgiving aircraft when you screw up. The thought behind this analogy is that with enough money, you could make a russian jet fighter out of an anemic trainer from wichita, ks.

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

yes, i see what your saying, but wouldnt a compleetly unprepared vehicle be more likely to step over the edge faster and more unexpectidly than a vehicle that has been prepared and tested? stock peices would be as unpredictable as some severe modifications, if not more so....they twist, bend, and move alot more than proven suspension components and are therefore more predictable. if the driver is just learning, shouldnt he have a few mods to make the car respond better and have better overall feel and predictability. just a thought.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

It's somewhat difficult to explain, but a car with lower limits will often have a bit of a "fuzzy" edge. Meaning, as you get there and start to "go over" you have a very wide edge to stand on. That gives you some time and ability to catch it before you get clear off of that edge. As you raise the limits, the line not only moves farther out, it gets thinner. The thinner that line is, the easier it is to get clear over it. Does that make more sense?

For example, adding R compound tires to a car will increase its grip substantially. The problem is, R compound tires are basically stuck or unstuck. Where a street tire will begin to howl an squeal as you get to the limits of grip (and thus let you know that you are getting real close to having a problem), race tires will let you drive right up to that edge....and then SNAP, you run out of grip (usually resulting in cruising through the grass or worse). Race rubber gives little warning that you are getting to the limit, thus making it harder to stay on this side of that limit. Suspension mods can do the same. The more grip a car makes, the more force it will have when it runs out of grip (going faster, turning harder, pulling more "G" forces). So, the penalty for exceding that limit can be both much worse and can show up much faster. You'll have less time to realize that you're in trouble and far less time to do anything about it. So, as we raise the limits, we move the line and make it thinner and thus easier to cross completely.

Did that help?

Also, I'm sure you'll get it beat into your head at the track but always remember:

"In a spin, both feet in".

Meaning, if you lose it completely, stand on the brakes and the clutch HARD. Once you realize that it's going around, and you are now just along for the ride, stand on both pedals with lots of pressure. This will slow you as much as possible before hitting anything, or keep you from hitting something you may have hit otherwise. Trying to save it usually does more harm than good. (And, yes, I've spun them. At one autocross, yes autocross, I spun the car at about 70mph, put both feet in and went 1.5 rotions and about 150+ feet. This was not even at a track day, just a high speed autocross).

That's probably the best advice I can give you (that and to have fun).

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Hmm... Not to be ignorant or presumptuous, but I want to think snap oversteer can result in an action that was like the "Viper Attack" video, eh?

If that's the case, then there must be a lotta rich, inxeperienced Porsche drivers that I'm witnessing on the I-5 who think they're at Buttonwillow.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Well....Hmm. Typically, "snap oversteer" occurs in a corner. I've driven the track in question and other than a slight kink, that is a basically straight section of pavement where the viper lost it. There is a dip there and it appears that he lost grip on one wheel under power, or did something "stupid" (the report was he "swung out" to pass and jerked the car resulting in the hasty exit to the left that he made). Smooth, remember? (please remember ). I'd not consider that so much a case of snap oversteer as just a boneheaded mistake. The car probably did snap, but it was mishandled to cause it. True snap oversteer is when running hard through a corner and suddenly a slight bump upsets the chassis, or you get enough body roll to hit the bumpstops hard enough to raise the spring rate and upset the chassis, or some various combination of the above. It's a sudden loss of the rear end during a corner with no "problematic" input from the driver (unlike the Viper). Did that make sense?

Ojustracing

iTrader: (4)

Sorry I havent Been around the last few days. But everyone is making great points. Everyone says in there own words what they think you should do. Me included. Were not out to sell you things, just to make sure that you have a safe and fun first time on track. I guess you could use the point of BEEN THERE DONE THAT. If you want to mod your car then go right ahead, It sounds like you want to do something and whatever we say might not change your mind. The sites I am part of are very down to earth. you ask a question and you get an answer. Sometime its not what you want to hear.

I'll try and put this into common terms that you might be able to relate too. This post has brought up the fact of is a vette a better handling car. On paper Yes, At the track no. If we are talking Professional drivers that have many many hr of track time yes it will. But most people at OT days have little track time and it shows in there driving and lap time. So there are times when a car that on paper is hugley slower than the other car, but it post's better lap times. What I have found at the tracks is that it comes down to driver skill and not the car. The car does help but again it raise's the Limits of where you can get in trouble its not going to be pretty. Here's a very good example to show you what Im talkiing about. I attended a OT day at Lime Rock last yr. This was my first time there and first session had me running laps in the 1:14 to 1:16 range for the first session. I talked over with an instructor about some issue I had with the track in a couple turns and gave me some things to try. Well they worked and after a few lap I had a best of a 1:08+-. After I got back I talked to a friend that has many lap at the track and said that a 1:08 on street tires is really good. But he then put me back in my place with his best time of a 1:07.5 in a Jetta that has 150 hp. I was able to run close to 20 mph faster down the front stretch than him but he was able to make it up at other points at the track. So on paper my 350Rwhp car should of beat his 150 jetta. But it didnt.

So speaking of limits. Rasieing the limits of handleing of the car brings about other issue's. Greater handling limits increase your straight away speeds,thus increasing brake demands. Greater handling limits also increse you corner speeds which leads to different lines and turn in points that put you closer to the edge off disaster. When at higher speeds 6 inches makes a difference. In OT days we all have to start slow to go faster. These cars have handle good enough and have enough power to get you in to plently of trouble when starting out. Having the car handle like it is on rails raises the points/speeds of the car that you would be overdriving your ability quickly.

You will most likely have an instructor with you for the first day. Depending on how your driving is he may 'reel you" in, to not really be able to explore the limits of the car.

Finally speaking of setup. We all agree that car setups vary grealty of what you want in a car. My set up St35/25, Sa Koni's, Eibach Pro, rod end Lca/Phb In road race trim I feel the car is to tight. While other will say that my car should be Very loose. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with. You might not like my setup. Some people may.

Were not trying to sway your mind in coming out and running a OT day. Were just trying to explain to you that might want to consider holding off the Mods until you have a day or 2 to see what you want to do. Check the car over, Performance alignment, add some new brakes, and enjoy. Sorry for the long rant. John

HPP

Trackbird, the re-explanation is perfect. Makes much more sense now. I guess you can see how I was originally thinking of a very defined line of no particular width and the "edge" of the cliff, and space in between them. That's what had me hung up. (but you cleared it. )

Ojustracing, "on paper" is real though. Like you said, if the driver can use it, it's there, so, it really is there, and is better. The fact that people frequently can't use it doesn't take it away. And it's killin me because it's makin' me want a 'Vette more and more. lol Wish I had some tracks around here where I could go have some fun too.

Pimpmaro, the MiG would out run, out climb, and out dive the Cessna, but the Cessna could fly slower and outturn the MiG. So if the MiG driver got into a knife fight with an armed Cessna, he'd lose. (the MiG could turn 180 or 360 degrees faster than the Cessna, but in a much wider arc)

I guess what I was trying to say with that original analogy wasn't totally clear. Being a flight simmer, I've witnessed many web forum fights...err "debates", about plan performance. And that includes the posting of many charts. They often say "top speed", but they don't often tell you at what power level. Some apparently did test at 'Combat Power', which is considered 100%. But there was a wire at that point preventing casual progression of the throttle past it, but if the pilot wanted to, he had an extra 10% (roughly) that he could push the engine in emergencies (War Emergency Power). But this shortened engine life drastically so pilots were strongly encouraged not to do it, thus making the lower limit "maximum" (or, maximum safe operation range). But, when one things "top speed", they think absolute maximum speed attainable under it's own power, which would be WEP. But like I said, some didn't test that way, some did, of the same plane in certain cases too. So it creates a lot of confusion (and often arguments, lol).

But we digress.....

Ojustracing

iTrader: (4)

HPP If you want a Vette than buy one. If you look at the analogy that it will be faster and better than buy one. When you get passed by a car half its price, Enjoy that Vette . Later John

HPP

I wasn't attacking you man. What's with the sarcasm and hostility?

I do want a 'Vette. Always have. But the reason I don't have one is the same reason I won't go buy one - can't afford it. Plus with my WS6 I don't have room for 3 cars (counting my daily driver Grand Prix), and I don't want to give up my T/A so..... that kinda leaves me stuck. But lust still won't go away. lol

All I was saying is, if car A can do the slalom at Xmph, then it can do it at Xmph. Doesn't mean I could jump in and make it happen, but the potential is there. Whereas, if car B can only do the same slalom at X-Ymph, then that's it. No matter how good I get, the car is the limit. Right?

But beyond that, yes, you are right, it's the man not the machine. It's why Mustang and Jug (Thunderbolt) pilots were shooting down 262s (jets). Ace in a lesser performing plane vs greenhorn in a superior plane will see the Ace adding another one to his kill score. And so it is in racing, the better driver will take the better line and run the better times, even in the slower car, as you described in your Jetta experience. But I see that as a different thing altogether from the potential of the car. That's all I was saying.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I have been on track with my share of Mini Coopers, Jettas, M3s and Porsches.

I get pissed at M3s and Porsches and have made Mini and Jetta owners mad at me.

Just because "on-paper" a car is supposed to be superior, doesn't make it so nor does it make it easier to drive.