jRaskell

iTrader: (1)

This proportioning bit is simply a matter of mistaken semantics. By your description, we're really just talking about the ABS activating on the rear wheels to regulate brake pressure and keep them from locking up. This is the way I've always understood ABS to work in general. I was well aware our cars didn't have a proportioning valve, and aware it was because they rely on the ABS to keep the rear brakes in check. I never really considered this electronic proportioning. Just ABS activity, and it is still very apparent when it occurs.

The problem I always have with 'personal experience' is it's subjective and unreliable nature. I do my best not to let my own biases influence my judgement of things. You say people, including yourself, have personally experienced ABS getting you out of a sticky situation. What's to say you wouldn't have been able to get out of that same exact situation without it? Does that prove the worth of ABS? Not at all.

As for car companies including ABS in all their vehicles. Please. Manufacturers make what sells, plain and simple. The vast majority of consumers out there today will not buy a car without ABS, so the Manufacturers are going to build their cars with ABS whether it's an honest value or not. Perception is what ultimately rules any marketplace. That's also the primary reason we have such a large selection of cross drilled/slotted rotors in factory performance cars as well. Doesn't mean they provide any true benefit. Proper restraint systems are also more effective and cheaper than air bag systems as well (and I'm not contending a lap/shoulder belt is a proper restraint system), but consumers can't be bothered to buckle up, so air bags are mandatory. And the ironic part there is that, as a result of air bags being everywhere, more and more people don't bother with buckling up. Now we've got side air bags becoming more prevalent.

Statistics can be interpreted to support what somebody WANTS it to support, but when read objectively and intelligently with the goal of trying to determine WHAT it supports (as opposed to trying to make it look like it supports what YOU want it to support), it'll paint a far better picture of reality then the subjective and biased experiences of individuals. Yet, you'd still have me put more weight on the opinion of another person?

That I can believe, but do you feel ABS helps you perform any better on the track?

TooSlow02

No, it's just a matter of you being mistaken. My description is an overview, since there really isn't room here for anything else. The computer can send as much or as little brake force to the rear wheels as it deems necessary through calculation. The ABS does not have to activate in order for proportioning to take place. Wheel SLIP does not mean wheel LOCK.

Funny, you still haven't answered my questions. And you obviously let your personal biases influence your judgement because you certainly seem to have something against active control systems in general. You keep saying "the statistics" would back up any benefit. Be more specific. WHAT STATISTIC? Is there a statistic for accidents avoided through use of an active dynamic control system? That's would be the only real indicator of effectiveness. The only thing you can do is look at the numbers and guess what might have caused them. But all you're doing is guessing. If you were subjective in analyzing them you would conclude much as I do: you can't tell one way or another.

One thing, though. And this is pretty much the basis of my entire argument. ABS didn't get me out of those situations, I DID. I used the ABS to assist me out of those situations. Having ABS there at my disposal HELPED get me out. I couldn't have done it without ABS, but the ABS couldn't have done it without me awake, sober, and paying attention to my driving. Having worked in this field for a while, I've gotten pretty familiar with vehicle dynamics. And as someone who is somewhat knowledgeable in this area I can say with certainty that the manuevers I put the car through in the road conditions I was in are simply not possible without some sort of electronic control. I can't say for certain if I would have died, but it wouldn't have been pretty. See, control systems like ABS are there to help you, by controlling the vehicle in ways you can't. The problem is, people will **** it up because they have no idea what they're doing. Do you have any idea how many accident interviews I've read where people admit to slamming on the brake pedal, feeling pulsations when the ABS activated, and let off right away in spite of the fact that the vehicle they were in was flying towards some very large object immediately in their path which they of course slammed into. ABS will do exactly what it is designed to do, but only if it's used. Stupidity is not the fault of the ABS.

That's the biggest crock of **** I've ever heard. Engineering costs for systems like these are somewhere in the hundreds of millions of dollars. All it does is make cars that much more expensive. And that's something that will not happen if a car company can help it. Hell, bean counters would give their first born children in order to save $.05 per car. Please.

Let's not get into airbags. They're everywhere in order to make sure people walk out of accidents with their lives. Engineers take this responsibility to heart, and they take great pride in being able to help save lives. You are commenting on something you know absolutely nothing about.

Exactly. Because the information we need simply isn't in any statistic.