BMR track pack tq arm breaks (street driving) takes rest of drivetrain with it (Pics)
11-10-2005, 02:10 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by Jimmy P
Damn, sorry to hear that. I didn't know about the bolts backing out and causing major damage until I posted on here that my bolts were coming loose, and one was even missing last time I checked. I am trying to find replacement ones as we speak. I dont think hardware stores will have them, but I will still check. I will be trying red locktite and tighten them down real real hard. My bottom ones were backing out, so I used a breaker bar to tighten them, and honestly used almost all the power I had in me even with the breaker bar, and they have not came loose yet. I can't get a breaker bar to the top ones though.
BTW, anyone know of a place online that sells bolts to use with a Moser 12 bolt? I have had a hard time finding grade 8 or hardened bolts from the local hardware stores in the past.
BTW, anyone know of a place online that sells bolts to use with a Moser 12 bolt? I have had a hard time finding grade 8 or hardened bolts from the local hardware stores in the past.
Mine was missing a bolt once ( which I thought was installer error), I went to a local auto parts store and handed them one of my stock bolts and they went in the back and came out with another. A really easy way is to find a machine shop, they usually have all kinds of bolts around.
11-10-2005, 09:03 PM
#63
Mc Master Carr, MSC should have what your looking for If you locktite anything make sure everything is clean and free of any fluids or debris, I wouuld still stress the saftey wire.. plier's can be bought at Harbor freight for 20 bucks.. good ones at Sears for 80 to 100 If its done right you shouldnt have to worry about anything..
11-12-2005, 12:42 AM
#64
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Originally Posted by BJM
I feel really badly for the guy with the broken car. Everyone should learn from this example. For anyone with aftermarket parts on their car you should keep in mind that the aftermarket fabricators have no standards to meet. Be very careful about modifying critical items on your car.
The OEMs have to certify cars to meet certain standards, in particular suspension pices must meet endurance standards. The aftermarket guys cannot actually tell you its safe to use these pieces on a public road. There are 2 reasons for this, the aftermarket guys do not have the expertise nor have they had the parts certified as a form fit function replacement for the stock parts.
The scariest parts are the tubular K members, GM has no incentive to make this part heavy, quite the opposite. So why does some fabricator with a welding jig think their light weight version is safe? They actually do not know. They just say "race only" and they are covered.
If you look at the first post in this thread you can see "beach" marks on one of the broken pieces. The part failed in fatigue. It may have been a flaw in the material that grew until failure. It may have been over stressed due to poor design and grew on its own (no measurable initial flaw). It may have been that load pathes changed as these famous bolts backed off their preload because of the design of an unrelated part, which then grew until failure.
I am not slamming a particular vendor but people are way too quick to dismiss the OEM parts as the crappy result of serious cost cutting and weight reduction yet most OEM suspensions stay together nearly forever.
If enough people break aftermarket suspension pieces insurance companies will become "aware" of this industry. Regulation will soon follow and most of these products will disappear.
The OEMs have to certify cars to meet certain standards, in particular suspension pices must meet endurance standards. The aftermarket guys cannot actually tell you its safe to use these pieces on a public road. There are 2 reasons for this, the aftermarket guys do not have the expertise nor have they had the parts certified as a form fit function replacement for the stock parts.
The scariest parts are the tubular K members, GM has no incentive to make this part heavy, quite the opposite. So why does some fabricator with a welding jig think their light weight version is safe? They actually do not know. They just say "race only" and they are covered.
If you look at the first post in this thread you can see "beach" marks on one of the broken pieces. The part failed in fatigue. It may have been a flaw in the material that grew until failure. It may have been over stressed due to poor design and grew on its own (no measurable initial flaw). It may have been that load pathes changed as these famous bolts backed off their preload because of the design of an unrelated part, which then grew until failure.
I am not slamming a particular vendor but people are way too quick to dismiss the OEM parts as the crappy result of serious cost cutting and weight reduction yet most OEM suspensions stay together nearly forever.
If enough people break aftermarket suspension pieces insurance companies will become "aware" of this industry. Regulation will soon follow and most of these products will disappear.
EX.- Say I buy the Hotchkis suspension package (the one that cost's about $1000). If I mainly use my car as my everyday driver and on take it to the track once, twice at the most, a month to the track. The components won't
hold-up?
Is the factory suspension suposed to "flex" in conjuction with each other?
And when a high performance component is added, does it put stress on everything else?
11-12-2005, 04:36 AM
#65
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Originally Posted by Cumbias
So aftermarket suspension products wont hold-up for at at least 5-8 years?
EX.- Say I buy the Hotchkis suspension package (the one that cost's about $1000). If I mainly use my car as my everyday driver and on take it to the track once, twice at the most, a month to the track. The components won't
hold-up?
Is the factory suspension suposed to "flex" in conjuction with each other?
And when a high performance component is added, does it put stress on everything else?
EX.- Say I buy the Hotchkis suspension package (the one that cost's about $1000). If I mainly use my car as my everyday driver and on take it to the track once, twice at the most, a month to the track. The components won't
hold-up?
Is the factory suspension suposed to "flex" in conjuction with each other?
And when a high performance component is added, does it put stress on everything else?
unfortuneatly that is exactly what he is saying
,,, you gotta have alot of cash if you really want to play. Its hard to believe but the stock parts are more durable and reliable than any aftermarket part even though they look like they are cheap as ****. The stock parts have to work for years or else they could have lawsuits etc.Infact the only part of car parts that is actually like a business is new cars, they have warranty's, you can take it back and have it fixed if its broke for free etc.
Best thing we can do when **** happens like it did/does to me is post about it so as many people as possible can avoid the same issue.
11-12-2005, 05:14 AM
#66
I dont realy agree with that saying, that the OEM parts are more durable.
The way I see it, the OEM parts are ment for a car that is stock, making about 310 at the wheels, with a very forgiving suspension that will take up a lot of the abuse.
Now add another 350 rwhp to that, a very tight suspension ment for drag racing, and see how well the OEM parts would stand up to that abuse.
The way I see it, the OEM parts are ment for a car that is stock, making about 310 at the wheels, with a very forgiving suspension that will take up a lot of the abuse.
Now add another 350 rwhp to that, a very tight suspension ment for drag racing, and see how well the OEM parts would stand up to that abuse.
11-12-2005, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy P
I dont realy agree with that saying, that the OEM parts are more durable.
The way I see it, the OEM parts are ment for a car that is stock, making about 310 at the wheels, with a very forgiving suspension that will take up a lot of the abuse.
Now add another 350 rwhp to that, a very tight suspension ment for drag racing, and see how well the OEM parts would stand up to that abuse.
The way I see it, the OEM parts are ment for a car that is stock, making about 310 at the wheels, with a very forgiving suspension that will take up a lot of the abuse.
Now add another 350 rwhp to that, a very tight suspension ment for drag racing, and see how well the OEM parts would stand up to that abuse.
As a general rule however, OEM stuff uses rubber bushings to absorb shock loads which extends part life greatly, but at the expense of some mushiness. Everyone equates this to being an OEM flaw. Use a part with solid rod ends and everyone can feel the difference, they like the increased feel, the conclusion is that the part must be better than the OEM stuff. Driving feel is not the way you assess safety but that is the only thing people can really do on their own. Be very careful about changing fundamental structural parts of your car.
11-12-2005, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Cumbias
So aftermarket suspension products wont hold-up for at at least 5-8 years?
EX.- Say I buy the Hotchkis suspension package (the one that cost's about $1000). If I mainly use my car as my everyday driver and on take it to the track once, twice at the most, a month to the track. The components won't
hold-up?
Is the factory suspension suposed to "flex" in conjuction with each other?
And when a high performance component is added, does it put stress on everything else?
EX.- Say I buy the Hotchkis suspension package (the one that cost's about $1000). If I mainly use my car as my everyday driver and on take it to the track once, twice at the most, a month to the track. The components won't
hold-up?
Is the factory suspension suposed to "flex" in conjuction with each other?
And when a high performance component is added, does it put stress on everything else?
Here is one for you, why do the aftermarket guys promote polyurethane so much? It is the injection molding equivalent of butter, its the absolute cheapest plastic out there, even nylon costs more. Polyurethane creeps ( a steady load causes it to deform) rubber is much more tolerant of this but at the expense of being less rigid.
Finally, your last sentence, if the road feel is changed then yes other parts may well be seeing higher loads than before. I am not saying modifications will kill you or your car. I too will soon be making suspension changes but not with poly bushings, and my adjustable PHB will have the adjuster at the end.
11-13-2005, 12:27 AM
#69
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the Hotchkis kit is the TVS system (I think that's called). It includes the lower trailing arms, panhard rod, lowering springs, strut tower brace, sway bars, sub frame connectors, and all necessary hardware. It cost's $1400 on performancecenter.com .
If I were to put all of this on my car, it would not hold up for a good numebr of years without maintenace (besides regular alingnments)?
If I were to put all of this on my car, it would not hold up for a good numebr of years without maintenace (besides regular alingnments)?
11-13-2005, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Cumbias
the Hotchkis kit is the TVS system (I think that's called). It includes the lower trailing arms, panhard rod, lowering springs, strut tower brace, sway bars, sub frame connectors, and all necessary hardware. It cost's $1400 on performancecenter.com .
If I were to put all of this on my car, it would not hold up for a good numebr of years without maintenace (besides regular alingnments)?
If I were to put all of this on my car, it would not hold up for a good numebr of years without maintenace (besides regular alingnments)?
The LCAs are fine too, the design of the side plates is all one piece with no weld that can break leaving the arm in 2 pieces. I do not like the poly bushings though. For my car I am boxing the lower stock arms myself and using rubber 1 LE bushings. During roll of the car when turning hard the poly bushings will add to the roll stiffness of the car making it seem like you have thicker sway bars. This can only happen by loading the arm mounts front and rear to react those loads. Realistically many guys do this and I have never heard of a failure of these brackets, but the loads are higher than before. The bushings comes with grease fittings because they squeak, especially once the bushing deforms a little.
The STB can't harm your car, the ones that might are the 3 point ones where they tie into the firewall, which was not necessarily designed for that.
The SFC will be fine since the car works without one.
That kit looks good, if I bought it I would swap a rubber bushing into at least one end of the LCAs.
12-06-2005, 01:07 PM
#72
Originally Posted by 2002gt
That torque arm is a cheesey design. It would of kicked the bucket anyways. My friend went with the BMR extreme duty no problems.
Last edited by rufretic; 12-09-2005 at 11:07 PM.
12-06-2005, 03:56 PM
#73
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It sounds like it all comes down to making sure you're prepared to deal with your car problems with enough $$$ and TIME to fix this crap when it breaks...oh yeah, eventually its gonna break.
12-09-2005, 08:14 PM
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I made bushings for mine ( spohn chassis mount) because of mosers smaller bolt design. Pressed in with grade 8 bolts no problem. I felt the rear mount was "walking" on the rear since the holes are bigger. Either the after market needs to make a bracket for the moser rear or make a kit with bolts for saftey wire and bushings too make existing products work proper
12-22-2005, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 1BADAIR
Another thing is. It should have been in the other set of holes. How did it clear the floor pan? Everybody else cutrs the one set of holes off and uses the others. The strain from the TA being on an angle could be some of the problem
believe or not it was straight on using the holes that it was bolted on with. It cleared the floor pan just fine never hit not even 1 time. I wish I would have known about this stupid f'n bolt issue before it broke, what a bitch!! I am sitting here slapping myself,, If only I had known
