blackrat

Yeah, it's pretty funny when owners of Stis and Evos talk about slalom time and all that via magazine racing but if you look at what kind of tires are tested with (stock) then you can see where a lot of the differance is coming from. Those cars both have top of the line 100 treadwear tires that barely last 10k miles, while even the top of hte line SS only came with 300 treadwear tires that can go 30k. When I swapped out my Yokohama avs 100 (also 300 treadwear, and a pretty good tire) for my current Nitto Road Race version of their R-compund tires (100 treadwear) the differance was night and day. Weight is still going to be an issue on the switch back portion, but these cars can also use bigger tires (275) so they have more meat down.

The S2000 is a quick car (my buddy has one and road races it frequently) but it's not the end all of sports car handling. It may be able to transition quicker (something I found out at the track last time we went) but when it came down to gripping through the turn my car was capable of more speed, plus the obvious horsepower advantage in the straights.

One thing you have to remember when trying to make your car handle better then a Z06 is that the vette is capable of handling with some of the world's finest car on the track. The mere fact that we can come close to them, and sometimes outperform them, really says something about the ability of the f-body to be a very good handling car, espicially when you consider that the thing was made to go fast in a straight line first and foremost.

Viper

iTrader: (6)

"really says something about the ability of the f-body to be a very good handling car, espicially when you consider that the thing was made to go fast in a straight line first and foremost."

I always thought they were built for SCCA racing on a roadcourse in 1969???

"Conceived to campaign in the SCCA's road racing series (with a special 303 cubic inch V8 which was never offered in production cars), Pontiac paid a $5 license fee to SCCA for each Trans Am sold to use the name."

from :

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...istory-1.shtml

HPP

When talking about the Z06.... which Z06? C5 or C6? I'm assuming C5 because it's much more common.

What are the differences (performance and potential-wise) between the C5 and C6 versions of the Z06? Are there mid generational differences (ie, an 01 vs an 04 Z06)?

On a semi-related note - what about base model vs Z06? I understand that the C6 Z06 is only 97% as stiff, torsionally, as the Z51, but a little lighter. If we are saying that 'Vette simply has greater potential than the F-Body, other than a little less weight, is there really any extra potential in the Z06 as compared to the base model (roofed) 'Vette?


It was an interesting observation someone made about the fact that our cars can get so close to a Z06, speaks volumes about just how good these cars really are. Our cars are technically GT cars, and there's nothing wrong with that. The M3 and new GTO are also GT cars. But we have an interesting hybrid. A GT car in a sports car garb, with a suspension that is an odd mix of old and modern sports car, with a drag racing legacy, all hampered by internal corporate politics and overhead. In many ways, we really came out ahead, depending on how ya look at it.

However, even though we all want our cars to be every bit as good as a Corvette. Being GT cars, they are not true, purposely designed, sports cars. That means we are invariably handicapped. The cars are bigger, to allow for the backseats. That means more weight. And we also, even with an aftermarket IRS, still don't have the transaxle, or exact engine placement (and accompanying weight distribution). Compromises were made to get that back seat in there, and keep costs down, as well as comply with internal politics.

The real competition ought to be STi's, Evo's, RX7s, Supras, Silvia's, GTO's, M3's, etc. Anything with a back seat.

Hopefully this stock Z06 everyone is talking about can smoke all those cars even when they are modded. (and if it's the C6 version, than I'm sure it probably can, given a 7:45 'ring lap time ) And hopefully we can get there without ripping out our interior. lol

A-man930

iTrader: (2)

Well put, I agree completely! It has to be fun to see the looks on these guys faces when they get romped on by a "hosier Camaro"

blackrat

What does that link to a first gen have to do with anything? Ok, the 69 model year was linked in with the SCCA Trans-Am name. Those years were still horribly handling cars stock. It wasn't till the engines became so choked up (Late 70s) that they had to start upping the performance in other catergories like suspension, which led to the 3rd gen. However, even though it was a lot better handling, and could hold it's own, the fact that it had a stick axle means that it's meant to put the power down in a straight line, not in a corner. I can guartantee you that the vast majority of f-body owners build their cars up for engine output with the intention of going down the quarter-mile as fast as possible, not hanging turns.

Just look at the thread counts on this board. There are roughly 180,000 posts related to drag racing, and barely 6,000 for road racing.

Viper

iTrader: (6)

So this is a drag race board, post count only reflects that. Check out frrax.com for corner carving abilities of the f body; 99% of the posts reflect it. The SLA I believe reflects what GM could afford to do and keep the price reasonable. And it's a hell of a lot cheaper to go drag racing than road racing. Drag racing again reflects the age group and income of most f-body folk on here.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

What does that have to do with if a Z06 and F-Car can handle equally?

blackrat

True.

I think HPP was able to say more eloquently the point I was trying to get across though, the fact that these cars are a compromise compared to the vette. It just always seemed to me though that as built on the sliding scale between the opposites of handling and dragging these cars tend to lean more towards drag aspect.

Like has been stated before in this thread though, and I myself posted, the fact that with a few tweaks and upgrades these cars can hang with a car that is on a level that challenges the worlds finest sports cars and some exotics is amazing.

Yeah, guess we're straying, sorry.

Andros

iTrader: (5)

A supra is a pig of a car but it can still handle. I just said supra becuase of the power/ weight similarities.

The trans am technicals are geared towards the straight line rather than track road races. Most japanese sports cars come stock with oil cooler, brake cooling... etc. they put alot of effort and technology into the overall car, not just the engine, to which in my opinion the trans am could be alot better if applied this import ideology.

CoronaL

iTrader: (6)

LOL
NOOOOOOOOOO!
near Z06 maybe. Like, hell no!

Disturbed Bird

iTrader: (9)

my friend has a bmw 325ci and handels like a car on rails but go figure it a bmw. can you get a 2002 ws6 to handel like or better then his bmw

HPP

That is the question.

From what I can tell, the 2006 M3 is less than 100lbs lighter than a WS6 T/A, has roughly the same power to weight ratio, and nearly the same accleration. (about 3430lbs, 5 seconds to 60, 13.4 quarter, etc)

It has better braking and slalom, but, the numbers I canb find show 114' from 60 for the M3 and 126 from 60 for the WS6. And 67.3mph for the slalom for the M3 and 61.8mph for the WS6.

This means better transitions with the M3, which makes sense when looking at BMW driver's comments about crisp steering response. However... lateral grip is about .88 for both cars.

Top speed on the M3 is limited to 155, while on the WS6, it's about 160.

The M3 makes it's power at 7900 rpm, with an 8K redline, and it's max TQ at 4900. Our cars peak their power at about 5K, with tq maxing around 4K (according to the dyno run of my stock WS6).

So the takeway, from what I can tell, is that, the M3 can brake slightly later, and turn in a bit better, but once taken a set, will hang on with the same amount of grip, and the same sort of acceleration.

Overall, means it's a faster car. However, the area under the curve seems to be greater for our cars. More power lower down. Should make it easier to drive.

So depending on the track, they should be within a second of one another, I would think.

And that's stock - with the crappy DeCarbons.


Cars like the 3 series are what I mentioned above. They should be seen as the real competition for the F-Body. I know our cars LOOK more sports car than GT car (more Corvette than 3 Series), but they are still 2 door 4 seater coupes with fully carpeted interiors and lots of luxury goodies. Thus, they are GT cars and in the 3-Series class (in that sense). So that's the goal we should shoot for.

The question then is, which car (of those 2) has the most total potential? Like I said, the weight is similar. The M3 has better balance, but we can make more power. If we can stuff wider wheels, we might equalize braking a bit. And gain in acceleration, with somewhat equalized handling.

I think ultimately, we won't have a car that feels like an M3, but would beat it on most tracks. ('cept maybe the Nurburgring, due to bumpiness, the IRS would have a big advantage over our live axle)

HPP

Please give us more information on this.

Pllleeeeeaaaassssseeeeeee.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

If I might add ...

I have a 96 Firebird built to run CMC. That means the LT1 under the hood is bone freaking stock down to the exhaust manifolds and Y-Pipe. I also have to run a 34mm restrictor plate (48 mm is stock) limiting my HP/TQ to 230/300 (234/288 actual).

My car is no lightweight, coming across the scales at 3300lbs with me in it and a full tank of gas. I have lightened and moved weight to get a 52/48 front to rear weight ratio.

I only run 255/55/16 Toyo Proxe R1s

Having said that ...

In the spring, I ran in an HPDE session with a bunch of C5s, Z06s, Carreras and Elise's. Most of them on either Pilot Sports or Hoosiers.

Only the Elise could gain and leave me by car lengths on a given lap. Unrestricted, I think I could have given the guy a run for his money. The Vettes and Porche's could catch me in places and I could leave them in others.

It's all about the weight ....

Ojustracing

iTrader: (4)

Mitch the driver has a big part in that too...........................


John

CoronaL

iTrader: (6)

I think what most fail to realize, is that most of you have never driven a c5/6 vette, much less a Z06. Nothing against F-bodies, they are a tremendous value. I think with enough $$$ you can out grip, slalom, and even beat a C5/6 on a track. But the question posed was "handle like". I think in that respect your diluding yourselves if you think you will be able to put up C5 Z06 track numbers and still have the same ride quality, "flickability" even though that might not be an actual word lol, and "feel" of a Z06. I'm not trying to be elitist here, but unless you drive and or track a Z06, you just can't appreciate what GM did to the C5. I look forward to the day I can drive a C6 Z06 . I wonder what that will be like

HPP

Quite.

Though I will say that 3300lbs including driver is rather light. But it is still nice to hear things like that.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

We have a Z28 out there that required 160lbs of ballast to make the 3200lb minimum as it comes off the track (fuel and driver with safety gear).

The car weighed under 2800 pre cage ...

John ... valid points.

The guys in those Vettes were respectible drivers ... one a SOLO2 regional champ many years running and the other the points leader in NASA TTA.

CoronaL ...

Good point. My race car certainly doesn't ride like a stock Z06. But it only cost me $8000 to build it.

CoronaL

iTrader: (6)

yeah I agree, hence the value part
Fboides are definately under rated in MANY respects. So too I believe are corvettes. Given similar mods etc... and in the case of the Z06, it's a tremendous value given the platform. Even the 70K+ C6 Z06 can be considered a value for what it is , and that's saying alot coming from a frugal person such as myself. Hence my quest for a new Z06. I will say I've enjoyed owning several Fbodies and loved each in it's own way. I mean no dis-respect to Fbody owners when I point out my observations, and honestly I've never had a totally setup Fbody with a track suspension, so I'm a bit naive here. But chassis to chassis, my Z06 is heads and tails above anything else I've had the pleasure to ride in. That includes M3's, some older ie 95 and lower ferrari's, any fbody I owned or rode in. However, I'm SURE, that there are cars stated above that would whip my hind end on any track, as I'm not a great driver, and given the effort and attention, fbodies can be made to grip and twist, but I believe at the expense of some other qualities.

dailydriver

Mitch; was that Elise running on Hoosiers?? If so, talk about unfair advantages, you might as well have been up against a F1 car!! Even on Pilot Sports they are deadly. That said, as stated, you unrestricted and on same compounds, I believe you could have taken him (your skill would not hurt with this either. ).