JEB99TA

iTrader: (32)

Nossir, wrong again. Not looking for an arguement. I simply believe with all my heart I would not have damage to my car right now if I had SFC's as my first modification. Trying to help the guy who started the thread so he doesn't end up feeling like I do ... WITH DAMAGE TO HIS CAR.
YOU were the first to quote Strano and LG, so, you're making yourself look like an *** by saying what you just said. Go back and read what you have posted. And so far, you haven't stated one single fact and half of the links you posted on the 7 page arguement where you tried to argue the same point about SFC's, well, my friend, most all those links you posted fail to support anything you've said.

Show me proof of what you're saying ... so far you haven't shown anything except what YOUR experience has been and what YOU think you are right about. Sorry, but, you're wrong. I know you find that difficult to swallow, but, I'm entitled to my opinion just like you are. Show me the money!

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Gee whiz, nobody is worried about anybody being a liar, we just want pics, from anybody okay? For a drag racing vehicle with some sticky shoes, dimples will happen if not for SFC's, or even better a roll cage. For the street? Where, how, and with what?

The point of this isn't that SFC's aren't needed, they are in certain situations. The thread starter asked clearly what would be needed to improve the handling for a street machine, and he owns a 4th Gen F-body. Plain and simple. AX and RRer's deal with lots of cornering, and they are always thinking outside of the box, therefore if it works, they keep it, if it doesn't and it adds dead weight, then its gotta go. If you read what LG mentions, he does SFC's on his now retired 4th gen f-body because of the dynamics involved with RR that is with acceleration and braking (kind of like a mini drag races of sorts) and on that car, he not only used sticky track tyres, but also a roll cage, and some very stiff springs with their appropriate valvings. He also mentioned that they don't affect torsional stiffness from the cornering and bumps encoutered (provided they're not a half-foot high).

I'm gald that you don't accept my posts as conventional wisdom, because I don't believe in wisdom or simple convention. I try every modification on my vehicle (actually both f-bodies, just don't like to mention the other one since it's a full-out racer) in a proper manner to really see what they're doing as opposed to just thinking that they are needed because advertisements and public forum opinion says so. In this saying that's what I'm trying to explain. I still have both STB's and SFC's that I have at numerous intervals installed on my F-body and see what a lot of the 4th gen f-body AX and RRers seem to observe.

Fact of the matter is that people are free to buy legal items what they want and sellers are mostly free to sell those items likewise, but I choose to post responsibly about what items really perform well on a street car or not. Basically I don't need people to rest for my information, I'd rather they try it out for themselves, in a consistent and correct manner that it. With most of my AX and RR needs, I go to frrax for that.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Okay, then go over to www.frrax.com and say what you're saying to me now. I wonder if they'll shut you down quickly there?

EDIT: BTW I still have all 3 of my SFC sets and 2 STB's, and I'm keeping them incase I have those "dimples", and so far with what power I have and the tyres (Kuhmo V710s) I'm still waiting for those dimples. Maybe I'll get one when I perform a 4500 rpm burnout, that's if my rearend doesn't go first.

And remember 4th gen f-body for the street. And yes, LG and Strano are indeed champs in the 4th Gen f-body.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

well, I returned to pg. 7 and those posts you mention are about as useless as most of the other posts you have mentioned. Not to mention that your then introduce the fact of championships, which could matter, but the poor fact is that the winner is a mustang driver using SFC's from a company not manufacturing for the F-body. The Fox body is also still known to need SFC's as well as the 3rd Gen F-body is, and that's for daily driving alone. How does this help those who fall within the first posts needs?

How in the world do I make myself look like an *** when I mention RRer's and AXer's that participate regularly on the board with 4th Gen F-body's and they too mention that for a daily driver they aren't a must? Plus reread that post including LG, straightforward about handling is concerned. As far as the championships are concerned, driver skill and vehicle setup are two seperate but both equally important things. Are you aware that there are still several cases in AX where the vehicle is modified and tuned extremely well, however the driver can have great skill, but one tiny mistake can be the speratation from victory and defeat? Are you aware that in several AX classes, they don't allow SFC's, though I think they should allow them. do you also realise that there are rules to regulate all those vehicles in RR to be conform to rules to keep competition fair? AFA the "***" is concerned, it appears to really be the other way around.

Oh, and you noticed that comment by mitchntx? Take the time to read that and you'll see what it really means. You know where he competes in as well, don't you? Let me guess that you will show pics from a car that's not a daily driver with street tyres, but a daily driver that see "10's looking for 9's" on race compound tyres? No wonder why an F-body like that can have wrinkles.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Ill bring up one more thing about this article. Marek says, "If anyone knows anything about auto cross racing, it really isn’t about how much horsepower you have, but what suspension parts you race with and who drives the car. I can surely say that I am not the best driver around, but I can say that the Häns Racecraft subframe connectors bring me to the finish line first."

But does he at least mention GVW, weight distribution, MOI, Shocks, spring, and swaybar combination, brake pad compound, tyre compound? Does he mention doing this in a street stock or near street stock 4th Gen? There are LS1 mustang conversions here at this board, but wasn't the thread concerned with a "must have" parts for a street vehicle?

JEB99TA

iTrader: (32)

Foxxton. You write books to try and prove somebody wrong. Is that ALL you do with your life ... try and prove somebody wrong about sub-frame connectors? Even if you type 100 wpm, you've spent 10+ hours of your life trying to convince people that you are the world's reknowned expert in the art of sub-frame connecting!

Look, noone is going to shut anyone down for constructive criticism of SFC's ... so long as you conduct yourself with some sort of decency. Anyway, a lot I do agree with in what you're saying. I simply believe (as most F-Body owners on here believe) that right rear quarter panel wrinkles are caused from flex/twist because the front and rear sub-frames are not connected together, causing a known amount of flex to occur in any vehicle. Nowadays, most car manufacturers are installing SFC's ... look what the GM Engineers figured out about the GTO ... wow, they are NOW using SFC's ... wonder why? Of course, I guess General Motors doesn't know the purpose of SFC's. They must just put them on their vehicles just to use as a jacking rail ..

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

There you go again comparing vehicles of different makes and design. AFA the GTO, desgined by the wonderful engineers at Holden, a subsidiary of GM with their own engineers, is a different vehicle, and has an STB, not SFC's. They were in designed in, yep down under. Personally I don't have a GTO, but this site shows clearly that they don't have SFC's to begin with. http://www.bmrfabrication.com/GTO.htm

EDIT: The one vehicle that does have factory SFC's are the 4th gen f-body converts (probably inadequte ones). I have a t-top equipped one and none of the flex was resolved through any of my SFC's.

BTW, less talk about our personal feelings, and more about the facts like you want, okay? I understand what you're getting at, but the fact is simple, what does the thread starter really want? If the guy wants the things, okay, but like you and everybody else, I will state what really needs to be looked at. Heck If the guy wants any of my SFC's (2 or 3-points), he can PM me, and we'll discuss pricing, cuz I know I can get some decent money for them, and they're in good condition. I have yet to see SFC's ever made badly for this or any vehicle.

And if the moderators don't agree with what I'm doing, they can just tell me and I'll put my inputs on ice, but until then...

May Spin

4th gen F-body's do flex, but very little. Can SFC's help?... Sure, but I see no point to them for a daily driver. For someone looking for every ounce of performance, then yes they might benifit from them. But the whole point to this thread is "must-have". And where you draw the line will differ from one to another.

Let's take a look at some of the experienced competitive 4th gen racers on this board, some have SFC's others don't. But all and I mean ALL have good dampers and tires with custom alignments. If allowed, all will have big swaybars, and likely stiffer spring rates. Now... If I were to creep into their trailers late a night and change any one of those forementioned parts back to stock, then the event would be lost. If I took off their SFC's let alone a STB I don't think the sky would be falling.

Anybody wanting their 4th gen to be more stable, handle better or ride nicer and choose to buy SFC's or a STB before shocks, tires and swaybars.... Well, I'm sorry you screwed up, period. Those components ARE a "must-have" and will drastically improve the performance of the car. PHB's, LCA's, relocation brackets are used most of the time to correct an issue that YOU the modifier create.

It's up to you how far you want to go.... SFC's have their place for some folks, but they should be nowhere near the top of the list.

Scott.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

If the uni body does flex between the front and rear sub-frames, why does it then wrinkle the fenders and not the floor pan? Why do the doors still open nicely? why do all the body seams have nice, even gaps?

The floor pan and doors are BETWEEN the 2 mounting points and the most "flexible" points of the car. The wrinkles you describe are well behind the rear frame mounting point, clearly between 2 solid frame rails.

Personally, I think those wrinkles are from folks installing lowering springs with bad shocks and bottoming out the rear suspension, especially after loading the car down with hundreds of pounds of stereo gear.

Foxxton ... you are a rock.

Do I have SFCs on my car? Hell, yes! It makes jacking the car up so much easier ...

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Would I still be one if you saw my abused 1999 (part-time AXer) street Z28?

Somebody please help me find those damn wrinkles (seriously), I'm doing my best to find it on this car, and it has the items in my sig, plus it at one point had lowering springs on decrapons, when I purchased the darn thing at 37K.

EDIT: this is the same vehicle that I describe with all of STB's and SFC's that was involved. The odom is off since it was a brand new instrumentation to replace the one that suddenly died around 42K and had to be sourced from a nearly brand new totaled vehicle (thanks dealership J/O's). It's actually around 140-150K.

http://community.webshots.com/user/Foxxton

I don't even want to involve my 1994 "track freak" F-body because it has too much bracing for it to count.

JEB99TA

iTrader: (32)

Foxxton ... u craaaaa-aaaaaazy man. LOL!!! I'm throwing in the towel on the "must have" being SFC's. Still disagree with a lot of what you say, but, who doesn't ... hehehe!

Gotta' love that jacking rail!

Pats Fan

iTrader: (3)

Lots of interesting info here. I'm trying to spend money efficiently so I'm glad to hear I can forget the SFCs and spend the money elsewhere. But I'm interested in this comment from Holger:

>>I still have the Bilstein Tuned Suspension Kit in the basement. What I've learned here from reading in this great board is, that the Bilstein HD's are not a good choice for the lowering springs. So I will take the HD's and put them on the car, together with the stock springs.<<

I purchased a set of Bilsteins from SLP and also a set of Eibach lowering springs this past winter. I'm about to install them. Is this not a good combination? (it's just a DD, no racing)

thanks

JEB99TA

iTrader: (32)

Foxxton and anyone else who would like pics of the body wrinkles, please PM me with e-address and I'll send the pictures to you. You have to downsize the pics to post them here, so, you can't see the damage very good once they're downsized. BTW, the car had no lowering springs and only had JBA shorty headers/Random Tech catted Y with Borla CATback and a Superchips Handheld tune/stock shocks ... no lowering springs.

May Spin

Look at it this way..... In a timed event with equal drivers and cars however....

Car A - Good dampers (Say... Koni's, actually let's say HD's)
Car B - SFC's (Pick the bet one, I don't care)
Winner - Car A

Car A - Good tires
Car B - Stock F1's with SFC's
Winner - Car A

Car A - Big front swaybar (Say.. Strano, Hotchkis)
Car B - SFC's
Winner - Car A

For you SFC's are a "must-have", I honestly beleive that you're feeling a subtle subjective difference (some will even tell you they felt no difference)with the car that has given the appearance that the car is handling better. Shocks, tires, swaybars and for the track springs will take you further and with better times than SFC's could ever do.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Personally, nobody here has to agree or disagree with me, nobody here needs to get angry or hostile at anyone, and nobody here is telling anybody else how to spend their money, however I advise that if you come up with point, try to stick with what's really the point and go to great lenghts like I did. Do try to really read and question into what mod really does what, even if you have to call up the fabricator/manufacturer, and don't fall for nothing but "laurel restings" (championships, college degrees, amount of sales, silly accolades, and contrived testimonies). My car is really abused but as long as it will not see a serious accident (or at least another fender bender before I got the 1999 Z), I doubt that I'll need SFC's for the whole purpose that a lot of people are purporting here, but that's my personal experience. I am actually performing all of those crazy tests just to really see what's doing what. FWIW, I include those questions earlier towards anyone just to really see what what knows and what one can learn how a vehicle's handling properties are not only changed through quality products, but also quality settings. That's why I post a lot. Oh, and I can be convinced otherwise, just put much more positive proof behind what you're saying. Also, I will not post anything about items that I haven't tried (like the tornado fuel saver?).

For the pics I posted, that's pretty much for anybody doing a search to see. Yeah, the lighting kind of sux, but I post it for the "whole world" to see, and those who have those dimples, the webshots site is free and easy to setup. In all due respect to any member here, I personally won't get my e-mail address involved into something in order to protect myself from spam and viruses. I have you have something to show and you have a good point, why not share it completely with the community here so everyone can benefit?

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

My 2 cents.

I'm really not sure whether the valving may be acceptible (that is if you're refering to the SLP valved Bilsteins), however my knowledge of valving would be that since the SLP Eibach's are not quite as low and might not have the spring rates that the pro-kit and Sportlines have, the valvings aremost likely inadequate for a pro-kit, but just about any valving is inappropriate for the extremely low ride height and soft spring rate of the sportlines. If both the Eibachs rates and the Bilsteins valvings are both to SLP specs (usually purchased in a package from SLP, or included as a level 1 package RPO) then there is no problem AFA proper spring and shock combination.

CaptUSA

iTrader: (5)

I don't have the experiance that a lot of you guys have, but I bought into the SFC and STB "must have" hype back when I bought my SS. The STB, I consider to be a paper weight that happens to look bad *** under the hood. BUT.... What people say about being able to feel the difference practically "out of their driveway" with the SFC's... That was me. Hands down, 100%, you can feel a difference. Weather or not that differance equals anything in a road race...??? Dunno. But you can tell they are there at the very least.

BJM

iTrader: (1)

You are not alone. Like you say you could feel a difference but it probably does not make a noticeable difference to handling. The zealots will tell you this is impossible and you are wrong.

zeeboid

I like that...

you can feel a diffrence, but the diffrence doesn't matter.

well, the diffrence I feel means SFCs are for me.

Okay. Show me the Numbers.

Does anyone have a Track or a skidpad they can test their Fourth-Gen F-Body on with/without SFCs? Numbers don't lie. Anyone?

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

I like what you said, and guess what? I already planned for that, so at this point it's anybody else's liberty, however I'll put my money where my mouth is for the second time. As a matter of fact, I'll videotape this as well in most of it's entirety (no fancy editing), and what else I'd like to find is some others (possibly ls1techers) that I've been in contact with who are fence sitters as far this debate is about to participate in this as witnesses (for only "street legal style" driving, and will watch from a safe distance AFA time trials are concerned. I am one of the biggest safety freaks in existence). This will be done at either an AX event, or an open road course with both "street legal" driving and at my street legal vehicle's limit with the respective course/track. Again, this is a non-hostile approach for those with reading impairments. I hope to complete this sooner, however it will depend on availability of AX event, AX "parking lot space, and/or open road course. All other factors are easily attainable.

As I stated before I have no problem being proven right or wrong, even if it's posted over at my webshots site for the world to search for. Allow roughly two to four weeks for in return and I'll put my current postings on ice. AFA the SFC's, I'll have them bolted on, because I'm frankly tired of using a plasma cutter, and I'll not do it myself, but have a shop performing the install/uninstall in a random fashion (don't ask, wait for the results). I'll also reinstall the POS OEM buckets as well to account for a "SOTP" like what most will feel. ALL controls will be accounted for, and NO other adjustments and/or changes will be made. Whatever purchasing decision(s) in the meantime by anyone is their liberty as well as their responsibility.

Always in the end, it's simply to prove a point, and I expect nothing to change. As usual, anybody's actions for what they buy and/or what they do in the end is their responsiblity and their decision. Plain and simple. No subliminal messages.

(Disclaimer: I claim no responsibility [including but not limited to: legal, ethical, moral, administrative liability] for any other persons' actions and their results thereafter who decides to perform this or anything at all as it is their sole responsibility. Basically, you risk your own life and others, it's your own responsiblity and vice versa. I absolutely do not endorse this driving on any public roads and/or any unsupervised and/or unsanctioned events. Also I make no "sky will not fall" claims either as result of what is seen through my website. Again, end user is solely responsible for his/her actions. This whole test is solely for the purpose of seeing what's plausible or not.)