RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

My experience: I noticed that what I thought was a door ding on my right quarter was actually a crease. Then, several months later, I noticed a very subtle crease on the left. So I decided to get boxed weld-ons to prevent this phenomenon from getting worse. What did I notice? That my ride became extremely stiff and impact harshness greatly increased. I thought about cutting them off but that looked like a hack-job nightmare. I called Sam and said "help." He recommended Bilstein HD's. They, with softer tires ("Touring" in front and DR's in back) made for a very nice combination. Now the car rides very comfortably and yet is very tight over road irregularities. I like how it feels when it launches and in long sweepers - very solid. My creases haven't gotten worse. Right now, I have the best of both worlds. Would I do it again? Probably not. Moral of the story: there may be some upsides, but there are also definite downsides to stiffening your chassis.

John_D.

iTrader: (2)

Who is Steve?

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

The Steve-o factor is obviously way over the top.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Err...

I think he meant Sam.

FWIW, Sam does know his stuff pretty well, as many other's who AX and RR (door to door, ORR, open track, etc.).

Rumour has it that he is working with a popular fabricator on this site (and with good reason) on the fabricator's prototype item. Also, I have discussed several things with him concerning "advanced motorsport" items, and he does really know exactly how they work and not just through "running them."

Hobb3s

iTrader: (23)

I've often debated this over in my head and read countless posts by sam and foxx on the subject matter and I've came to the conclusion that they really won't do anything for me. My car has over 91k rough miles (only 12k of which I've added) and has ZERO squeaks/rattles. There are no freak dimples on the fender (cept where a door has hit it), no stress cracks and still feels pretty tight even with the stock shocks and crappy springs. Now I don't ever plan to take the car to the track and most of my driving is just tooling around in the Summer. I thank the suspension guru's here for clearing the fog and saving my some clams

eddielb

Which subframe connecters allow me to be able to drop the car 1.5-2 inches?

9silverbird8

iTrader: (19)

KBDD's will tuck up very nicely.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

UMI's fit great, and when I say fit I mean both the acutal fit as well not hanging way down low. It's about all we are using these days. I sell them starting @ $139 for weld-in 2-points, and max out @ $279 (bolt-in 3 points), $259 for weld-in 3 points. Optional colors if you want, but they add a little cost.

Koncrete

iTrader: (3)

I think sam should change his name in response to this thread....


Sam "Steve" Strano

99wssixm6

iTrader: (3)

Sorry.....I meant Sam....

Predator

After I installed mine (BMR tubular), as soon as I pulled out of the driveway I just said "WOW, what a difference." I couldn't imagine driving my car without 'em. Absolutely amazing bang-for-the-buck mod. Most noticeable going around curves. The car feel tight and planted to the ground. Don't leave home without 'em.

01Z28M6

My logic for buying them was to give my beloved cars a full frame instead of two halves suspended between a floor pan and two rocker panels. They are paid for but still on the list to be installed. I didn't like the idea of adding 15 lbs to each car but then I do like the thought of what I said above. I will convince myself that I've made my cars into something better unless they become obviously less than what they were before the installation.

With that said, to the advice of getting boxed rather than round tube because boxed is stronger; not true. All engineers who understand the physics of these structures will tell us that round is inherently stronger just like a roll cage. A sfc that is stitch welded along the rocker panel offers the optimal support.

I see the frame as the backbone where all the other parts of the suspension place their load. It seemed to me that putting better suspension parts on a flexible platform is like having 20 inch biceps with a bad back. Hence, I bought em and I'm going to use em....

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

The point here is simple...... What happens when SFC's are added is clearly debatable. Some think they kick-***, some find no worthwhile change. You DO NOT FIND THAT KIND OF SPLIT with things like shocks/bars, everyone agrees on those being beneficial. That should tell folks something.

Further, as for the unibody thing, and giving the car a "full frame" Unibodies are basically monocoques--like race cars. When allowed, they don't run tube frames. Indy-cars, F1 cars, Daytona Prototypes, ALMS cars, etc.

The facts are:

Is adding them bad? No

Is adding them a must? Hell no

Should they be added before other parts? NO WAY

How many add them as "suspension" parts? Lots, and they are CHASSIS parts

How many add them because of squeaks, rattles, and cowl-shake? The majority, but they miss the point that those things stem from impacts getting TO THE CHASSIS THAT SHOULD NOT GET THROUGH THE SUSPENSION.

What keeps those nasty things out of the unibody? The dampers (shocks).

Are there times I recommend SFC's? Absolutely.

Am I anti-SFC? Absolutely not, I just understand how they work and when they are needed from a lot of experience with customer's cars, my own cars, and hobbies that put a lot of load on the unibodies.

Predator

Sam, just curious, what types of cars are SFCs not needed?

Maybe I don't have the best shock/spring combo (SLP Bilstein/ SLP Eibach), but I added my SFCs after shocks, springs, LCAs, and PH bar, and saw a big improvement in how my car felt and handled.

00'WS6Rocket

iTrader: (3)

I would also like to know!! my car is a dd but i'm getting it cammed with stage 2 heads and its on stock suspension

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

No way for me to answer that by e-mail. Sorry. I've made my points, and that's all I can really do by way of the internet.

fa63

Stronger in torsion, not bending. But SFCs are subjected to torsional forces for the most part anyways.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Another thing to consider here as well:

http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...assis-Rigidity

Even though the guy who wrote this has less elaborate knowledge and experience than many AX and/or RRer's here, guess what? he's absolutely right.

Also bear in mind that the car that I have on webshots has the exact same suspension as my race-only f-body, extremely stiff springs with shocks that have quite a bit of damping, more than what's appropriate for many DDer's, also the shocks have no rubber bushings, just spherical bearings (high quality low misalignment degree ones made by Aurora). I daily drive with these with no SFC's and the NVH and flex must be worse right? WRONG. It dramatically reduced all of that NVH, plus the vibrations that were still there were a result of crappy interior fitment. If the chassis was really that weak, I would be developing much more rattling and there would be some serious chassis flex than with DeCarbons. Over 50000 street abused and AX miles later, nothing worse. Again this is still consistent to what autozine author stated and is also very consistent with that other F-body that Sam mentioned as well.

Also for those who don't like to read in depth, if the body was that weak, I would have to dramatically reduce the spring rates and damping in order not to cause the flex, and still use SFC's, but that just doesn't happen with the exception of some seriously high horsepower drag racing with 5000 rpm burnouts, and in that case you should be considering a roll cage and other safety equipment for the safety and integrity of the body and a proper torque arm for that application as well. Don't rely on SFC's alone for any of those purposes.

Also, has anybody here tried to use strain gauges? That will be much more accurate than your butt-o-metre on any road, with just about any driver, with the proper testing. I can still tell you that I have had and still have access to strain guages with telemetry and the results are absolutely contrary to the many claims of the SFC's. Don't go by your butt alone, especially if you haven't made the effort to install proper seats (factory ones are horrible, even for daily driving).

Again, SFC's are not useless or overrated, it's just that there are many wierdo placebo effects that are growing into scientific mythology, and FWIW, if it's vibrations and harshness you'd want to stop on a 4th gen, you'd definitely need to look towards proper dampening.

With that said, if you want to dramatically improve your daily driving handling, look towards properly valved shocks (Koni SA's or approriately vavled bilstiens) and a quality set of tyres. Try not to use a wheel larger than a 17" diameter, otherwise you'll just be adding more rotational mass, even if you use forged rims for a replacement. If that's still not enough, look and see what sway bars you have then plan from there. Even the stock springs rate need not to be improved, just "mounted" lower.

In the end, people are just going to be adamant and buy what they want and that's okay for that purpose, but if one wants to really make a claim, try more than your butt, door dings, hot testimonials, and making excuses for leaving the real problems unsolved just because the finances don't allow.

BADSS

iTrader: (7)

Predator, I had the SLP Bilsteins and Eibachs on my 99, and I felt a difference when I installed SFC's, too. I'm not an AXer or a RRer, so it wasn't something I could quantify. But the car felt tighter, stiffer- felt more like it was "all one piece," if you know what I mean.

But what do I know? My first suspension mods were a STB and a torque arm, and I swear turn-in was tighter and crisper with the STB- something many of the experts on here will vigorously deny.

And before anyone says "placebo effect," know this: I have become a very wary and skeptical modder. I could give you a laundry list a mile long of useless mods that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve the performance or feel of my car- in fact, some of them actually detracted from the performance of the car. (HPP3 and Granatelli MAF, anyone? )

The improvements from STBs and SFCs may not be measureable in terms of lap times or even 60 ft times at the strip, but they do make a difference in the feel of the car. At least they did on my 99 SS with T-tops.

My .02.

Tavarez

Can someone post pictures of what these look like? Also can this be done to a vett?