so i removed my front sway bar...
05-31-2006, 01:14 PM
#21
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sam im not tell in people to do it...its just another option and i was giving my personal experiance
if you go to the track as often as i did at the time it makes sence to do it and the car definatly can be drivin without the bar without a problem...i did daily drive it like that for awhile but i did not drive stupid
my car is not a daily driver now...i run skinnes up front 100% of the time and still drive it down to the track and what not
the hals did help alot with my handling and the car does not sway much at all anymore at a high setting and i know the 325 springs and close to stock..thats why i got them so my nose did not drag on the ground since my race wieght is almost 3700
if you go to the track as often as i did at the time it makes sence to do it and the car definatly can be drivin without the bar without a problem...i did daily drive it like that for awhile but i did not drive stupid
my car is not a daily driver now...i run skinnes up front 100% of the time and still drive it down to the track and what not
the hals did help alot with my handling and the car does not sway much at all anymore at a high setting and i know the 325 springs and close to stock..thats why i got them so my nose did not drag on the ground since my race wieght is almost 3700
05-31-2006, 09:53 PM
#22
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Sam, I feel your pain...
"Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Mr. Common Sense.
"Mr. Sense had been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
"He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons such as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm and that life isn't always fair.
"Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not kids, are in charge).
"His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place - Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
"Mr.Sense declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student; but, could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
"Finally, Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense finally gave up the ghost after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, she spilled a bit in her lap, and was awarded a huge financial
settlement.
"Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by two stepbrothers; My Rights and Ima Whiner. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
"If you still remember him, pass this on; if not, join the majority and do nothing."
"Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Mr. Common Sense.
"Mr. Sense had been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
"He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons such as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm and that life isn't always fair.
"Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not kids, are in charge).
"His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place - Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
"Mr.Sense declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student; but, could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
"Finally, Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense finally gave up the ghost after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, she spilled a bit in her lap, and was awarded a huge financial
settlement.
"Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by two stepbrothers; My Rights and Ima Whiner. Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
"If you still remember him, pass this on; if not, join the majority and do nothing."
05-31-2006, 10:22 PM
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Wow guys, just wow.
The ones who have removed the sway bar and feel that you don't need it must drive some super predictable routes every day. I think the whole reasoning that, "I don't need it because I don't autocross" is just assinine. I have been in PLENTY of situations in my Camaro where It was reminiscent to an autocross. I found myself on freeway offramps where the road just turns into a sharp, 45 degree sweeper. I got into a race with a Z28 and I took the freeway off ramp into a sharp turn, to where the rear wheels worked out from underneath me and I found myself in a slight drift. Everytime worked out okay, but the outcome probably would have been alot different if the bar was removed.
The ones who have removed the sway bar and feel that you don't need it must drive some super predictable routes every day. I think the whole reasoning that, "I don't need it because I don't autocross" is just assinine. I have been in PLENTY of situations in my Camaro where It was reminiscent to an autocross. I found myself on freeway offramps where the road just turns into a sharp, 45 degree sweeper. I got into a race with a Z28 and I took the freeway off ramp into a sharp turn, to where the rear wheels worked out from underneath me and I found myself in a slight drift. Everytime worked out okay, but the outcome probably would have been alot different if the bar was removed.
06-01-2006, 07:17 AM
#24
Originally Posted by LS1vazquez
I got into a race with a Z28 and I took the freeway off ramp into a sharp turn, to where the rear wheels worked out from underneath me and I found myself in a slight drift.
I never said that removing the sway bar would NOT make a difference. Of course it does. But that doesn't mean you're going to die driving without it.
On another note Vasquez, it is really hard for me to take anything you write seriously after you posted about how rolling the windows down makes for more torque.
I rest my case, though. It seems like the people who admit you won't die from removing it are those who actually have removed it and tried it.
06-01-2006, 07:42 AM
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Everybody who hasn't had the experience of AXing, don't you dare suggest that you won't die by removing the front sway bar (famous last words). If you operate it on public roads, you'll have much less predictability than even a road course. FWIW, some forms of AX closely resemble some of the reactions a street vehicle may otherwise go through, and as a matter of fact, what do you think GM did before deciding on what diameter of sway bars to be used, or better yet, to even use them at all. Even much of the larger bars don't weigh that much compared not having them at all, yet they provide some very important duties.
If you think that you won't have a death mobile just because it doesn't seem much worse, then I think you need to take that same car without a front sway bar on a course designed for sudden unpredictable reaction. I have seen several f-bodies without the front sway bar (and other vehicles operating without them on the exact same course), and almost always they have induced violent snap oversteer, and this is a course where it's very similar to city streets and some rural highways.
If you must remove it for a drag race, put the thing on before driving on a public road. It's not that hard, provided you have good mechanical skills and the very few tools needed to install/uninstall. Unless any of you know the exact spring rate and valving increases needed to where you can eliminate most of the sway bar use and are willing to take the time to AX it, you'd better be careful with experimenting.
If you think that you won't have a death mobile just because it doesn't seem much worse, then I think you need to take that same car without a front sway bar on a course designed for sudden unpredictable reaction. I have seen several f-bodies without the front sway bar (and other vehicles operating without them on the exact same course), and almost always they have induced violent snap oversteer, and this is a course where it's very similar to city streets and some rural highways.
If you must remove it for a drag race, put the thing on before driving on a public road. It's not that hard, provided you have good mechanical skills and the very few tools needed to install/uninstall. Unless any of you know the exact spring rate and valving increases needed to where you can eliminate most of the sway bar use and are willing to take the time to AX it, you'd better be careful with experimenting.
06-01-2006, 08:07 AM
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I'd hate to be around when the attorney prosecuting a vehicular manslaughter case gets word that the F-body that tried to swerve, but instead lost control and ran over little Johnny was sans its front anti-sway bar due to a negligent owner. Some of you folks have no concept of how your actions can impact those around you or the liability to which you may be exposing yourself. Besides, its not exactly rocket science to disconnect one endlink at the strip... 
06-01-2006, 08:19 AM
#27
I had a single end link snap on me in the middle of a turn on my 88 car. Almost lost it then due to the sudden weight shift. I had to approach turns more cautiously till I repaired it because the difference that people are describing is not suitable for city driving where ANYTHING can and does happen...
06-01-2006, 08:35 AM
#28
This has got to be one of the most hilarious threads I have ever read. Everyone thinks they're right. People post who have not driven the car with AND without the bar. Sam throws in his usual know-it-all and "if its not about handling its crap" opinion. And people talk of street racing and how they would have probably died without a sway bar...blah blah blah...
How about everyone who thinks it is such a necessity to have one keeps it and everyone who thinks they can still drive there car responsibly without it takes it off?
How about everyone who thinks it is such a necessity to have one keeps it and everyone who thinks they can still drive there car responsibly without it takes it off?
06-01-2006, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by SSblack98
How about everyone who thinks it is such a necessity to have one keeps it and everyone who thinks they can still drive there car responsibly without it takes it off?
06-01-2006, 09:36 AM
#30
Originally Posted by Fulton 1
You're missing the point of my post above. Its not about right and wrong it the fact that the potential impact of your choices can and will impact others besides just you.
06-01-2006, 09:38 AM
#31
Originally Posted by SSblack98
This has got to be one of the most hilarious threads I have ever read. Everyone thinks they're right. People post who have not driven the car with AND without the bar. Sam throws in his usual know-it-all and "if its not about handling its crap" opinion. And people talk of street racing and how they would have probably died without a sway bar...blah blah blah...
How about everyone who thinks it is such a necessity to have one keeps it and everyone who thinks they can still drive there car responsibly without it takes it off?
How about everyone who thinks it is such a necessity to have one keeps it and everyone who thinks they can still drive there car responsibly without it takes it off?
06-01-2006, 09:43 AM
#32
Originally Posted by keliente
In my opinion that is kind of a moot point, at least when you are talking about this forum, where 99% of people here modify their stuff. You could say that people with big cams and no cats are polluting the environment and that is reckless. You could say that people who drive on bald tires or drag radials all the time are reckless. You could say that people who choose to drive V8 monsters instead of some gas sipping civic are harming others. So essentially almost everyone here is doing things that impact others besides ourselves.
06-01-2006, 09:48 AM
#33
Originally Posted by speedracer5532
Agree 100%. I think some people run their mouth just to hear it run. I bet that most people that say to not dare drive a car without the front sway has never driven a car without it. True maybe a stock f-body with stock shocks it might get alittle unsafe. But take my car for instance with subframe connectors and a 6 point roll bar my car is pretty damn stiff and I also have double adjustable afco shocks in the front with double adjustable qa1s in the rear with a wolfe anti-roll bar in the rear. My car drives just fine on the street without the front sway bar. It is rock solid at 160 mph going down the interstate.
Yep. If you have stock suspension and remove the bar it WILL handle like crap. But if you improve other parts of the car to compensate it can handle BETTER then stock. I know this because this is what I have actually done on my car, not what I am speculating about.
I have boxed sfc's, full rear susp, trak pak and single adjust QA1's (sam's favorite!) w/fronts on 8 and rears on 5 or 6, Spohn drag bar, and no front bar and it handles WAY BETTER then stock and is very stable at ANY speed. And yes this has been tested to over 150mph. I can drive it much faster and much more comfortably then with stock crap and a front bar.
Obviously this doesn't make it better then if I had Konis and a good set of sway bars but then again I can go to the strip anytime I want and get a good launch. All in what you want.
06-01-2006, 10:13 AM
#34
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What's with the "if you haven't driven without a swaybar then you shouldn't comment" argument? That's bullshit, guys. Its like saying "you can't say the stove is hot unless you touch it". The whole point of human progress isn't to learn from your own mistakes its to learn from the mistakes of those who came before. In other words, I DON'T NEED TO DRIVE ON A PUBLIC ROAD WITHOUT SWAYBARS TO KNOW ITS NOT SMART. I also don't remove my PHR brace or grind the **** out of my brake calipers - call me crazy. As noted earlier, the guy asked a serious question, the answer to which, can have dangerous implications. If nothing else, he ought to get a straight story instead of a bunch of "I did 160mph with no swaybar and its fine". If he kills himself or someone else because of your advice are you prepared to step up and take part of the blame? If not, then you are contributing to the ignorance and should just not give advice.
keliente, your comments have merit, but IMO mods should always be done responsibly and with a goal in mind anyway. Why else would you spend the money?
keliente, your comments have merit, but IMO mods should always be done responsibly and with a goal in mind anyway. Why else would you spend the money?
06-01-2006, 11:48 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by keliente
Those of us who ran w/o swaybars weren't street racing off of ramps, either. Any kind of street race imo anyway is reckless. And if we come up to a sharp turn? Hit the brakes. Novel idea, I know
I never said that removing the sway bar would NOT make a difference. Of course it does. But that doesn't mean you're going to die driving without it.
On another note Vasquez, it is really hard for me to take anything you write seriously after you posted about how rolling the windows down makes for more torque.
I rest my case, though. It seems like the people who admit you won't die from removing it are those who actually have removed it and tried it.
I never said that removing the sway bar would NOT make a difference. Of course it does. But that doesn't mean you're going to die driving without it.
On another note Vasquez, it is really hard for me to take anything you write seriously after you posted about how rolling the windows down makes for more torque.
I rest my case, though. It seems like the people who admit you won't die from removing it are those who actually have removed it and tried it.
06-01-2006, 12:05 PM
#36
Originally Posted by Fulton 1
What's with the "if you haven't driven without a swaybar then you shouldn't comment" argument? That's bullshit, guys. Its like saying "you can't say the stove is hot unless you touch it". The whole point of human progress isn't to learn from your own mistakes its to learn from the mistakes of those who came before. In other words, I DON'T NEED TO DRIVE ON A PUBLIC ROAD WITHOUT SWAYBARS TO KNOW ITS NOT SMART. I also don't remove my PHR brace or grind the **** out of my brake calipers - call me crazy. As noted earlier, the guy asked a serious question, the answer to which, can have dangerous implications. If nothing else, he ought to get a straight story instead of a bunch of "I did 160mph with no swaybar and its fine". If he kills himself or someone else because of your advice are you prepared to step up and take part of the blame? If not, then you are contributing to the ignorance and should just not give advice.
keliente, your comments have merit, but IMO mods should always be done responsibly and with a goal in mind anyway. Why else would you spend the money?
keliente, your comments have merit, but IMO mods should always be done responsibly and with a goal in mind anyway. Why else would you spend the money?
First no one is suggesting that anyone SHOULD drive at 160 mph anywhere.
I have just stated that I have and felt fine doing so WITHOUT a sway bar. Your analagies about hot stoves make about as much sense as the rest of your post. What we are saying is this: Have you ever driven a properly setup car without a front bar? OBVIOUSLY NOT so STFU! Got it?
Now for the other obsurd part about being responsible...
I guess if I suggest that putting a turbo 400+ci engine in your car with 800rwhp and you go and wrap it around a tree that I should "take part of the blame"? Get a life dude. Everyone on here is trying to make there cars faster in anyway they can. Sometimes it affects things like handling. If you can't handle your car after such mods or don't set it up right then YOU are responsible, end of story. This placing the blame crap is for pussies. If I wreck my car because of my setup at 50mph or 150mph it is my fault and I wouldn't try to blame anyone else. People that do are just being
06-01-2006, 12:35 PM
#37
What a bunch of moronic arguements... If you want too remove the bar FINE, but don't tell me how it handles just fine.
The car drives fine with no front bar, a mongo rear bar, and shitty shocks. Ok. I have some nice beachfront property in Arizona to sell if you are interested.
I read post after post, day after day that are completely bogus. If you want to believe your car is just fine with a setup like that on it, that's fine. Don't tell everyone else how great it is.
I've driven cars without front bars, both with and without good shocks. I've had endlinks snap on me during runs in cars. Let's not play the "you haven't tried it" game. I've tried, run, experiemented with way more things than most any of you have. It's my business, and I get to see and drive a lot of cars. What's even funnier to me is that I can turn the tables. Have any of you without front bars, who have HAL's, etc ever driven a car with more front bar? How about with real dampers instead of drag shocks? Opinions are relative, and furthermore everyone has one.
What rips me more than anything is that this is the handling and braking forum. NOT the drag racing forum. You guys are going this for drag racing, and that's fine. But it's not for better handling or better braking so what's it doing in this section?
You can feel like I'm talking to hear myself talk. I think that's funny, because I hate typing and I talk all day long. I'm also kind of a loner. I'm just trying to bring some common sense to the thread. Disagree if you want, I don't care. But so far all I've seen is a bunch of people saying "I do it, and it's fine". Sorry, but that's not good enough for. And anyone with a clue about how suspensions work for handling and stability will agree.
The car drives fine with no front bar, a mongo rear bar, and shitty shocks. Ok. I have some nice beachfront property in Arizona to sell if you are interested.
I read post after post, day after day that are completely bogus. If you want to believe your car is just fine with a setup like that on it, that's fine. Don't tell everyone else how great it is.
I've driven cars without front bars, both with and without good shocks. I've had endlinks snap on me during runs in cars. Let's not play the "you haven't tried it" game. I've tried, run, experiemented with way more things than most any of you have. It's my business, and I get to see and drive a lot of cars. What's even funnier to me is that I can turn the tables. Have any of you without front bars, who have HAL's, etc ever driven a car with more front bar? How about with real dampers instead of drag shocks? Opinions are relative, and furthermore everyone has one.
What rips me more than anything is that this is the handling and braking forum. NOT the drag racing forum. You guys are going this for drag racing, and that's fine. But it's not for better handling or better braking so what's it doing in this section?
You can feel like I'm talking to hear myself talk. I think that's funny, because I hate typing and I talk all day long. I'm also kind of a loner. I'm just trying to bring some common sense to the thread. Disagree if you want, I don't care. But so far all I've seen is a bunch of people saying "I do it, and it's fine". Sorry, but that's not good enough for. And anyone with a clue about how suspensions work for handling and stability will agree.
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06-01-2006, 12:57 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by SSblack98
Ok where should I begin with this half-thoughtout post...
First no one is suggesting that anyone SHOULD drive at 160 mph anywhere.
I have just stated that I have and felt fine doing so WITHOUT a sway bar. Your analagies about hot stoves make about as much sense as the rest of your post. What we are saying is this: Have you ever driven a properly setup car without a front bar? OBVIOUSLY NOT so STFU! Got it?
Now for the other obsurd part about being responsible...
I guess if I suggest that putting a turbo 400+ci engine in your car with 800rwhp and you go and wrap it around a tree that I should "take part of the blame"? Get a life dude. Everyone on here is trying to make there cars faster in anyway they can. Sometimes it affects things like handling. If you can't handle your car after such mods or don't set it up right then YOU are responsible, end of story. This placing the blame crap is for pussies. If I wreck my car because of my setup at 50mph or 150mph it is my fault and I wouldn't try to blame anyone else. People that do are just being
First no one is suggesting that anyone SHOULD drive at 160 mph anywhere.
I have just stated that I have and felt fine doing so WITHOUT a sway bar. Your analagies about hot stoves make about as much sense as the rest of your post. What we are saying is this: Have you ever driven a properly setup car without a front bar? OBVIOUSLY NOT so STFU! Got it?
Now for the other obsurd part about being responsible...
I guess if I suggest that putting a turbo 400+ci engine in your car with 800rwhp and you go and wrap it around a tree that I should "take part of the blame"? Get a life dude. Everyone on here is trying to make there cars faster in anyway they can. Sometimes it affects things like handling. If you can't handle your car after such mods or don't set it up right then YOU are responsible, end of story. This placing the blame crap is for pussies. If I wreck my car because of my setup at 50mph or 150mph it is my fault and I wouldn't try to blame anyone else. People that do are just being
06-01-2006, 01:56 PM
#39
Hi Mr. Strano, nice to see you could bless us with your all knowing presence again.
"Big front bars, hals are crap, everything for drag racing is 180 degrees from handling" Blah blah f-ing blah! You sound like a f-ing broken record. We all know where you stand on suspension for christs sake! Konis, big bars, spring rates etc. Thats nice and when I want to make a autoX or road race car I'll buy all of that! In the mean time there IS somekind of a happy median between decent 60 fts and decent handling. Notice the word DECENT. Not championship winning handling, DECENT handling. No I haven't driven a f-body that handles really good or is setup for it but I know what it drove like stock and I know that it handles better and more predictable then before even without the front bar. So that makes my opinion just as important as your all-suspension-knowing opinion....in my opinion. LOL. It's funny how predictable you are and how easy it is to make you go into a rant. I don't think that ANYONE on here that has removed their front bar was under the illusion that it would handle better. Huh. And just maybe the original thread starter wasn't looking for better handling when he took his off.
I also don't think the "handling and braking" section here says anything about being ONLY for autox & RR posts. Most of the people on here use their carrs for street and drag racing applications so would like to find a happy in between setup. Maybe if you tried to help them out instead of being such an *** you would get more business. But I'm sure you have enough from all you autox customers. But some people like to hear different opinions and different setups regardless of how crappy Mr. f-ing Strano thinks it might be.
No I haven't driven a car with a bigger bar but YOU haven't driven mine! But then again I'm sure you've driven one with the exact same setup because you have unlimited f-body experience...
"Big front bars, hals are crap, everything for drag racing is 180 degrees from handling" Blah blah f-ing blah! You sound like a f-ing broken record. We all know where you stand on suspension for christs sake! Konis, big bars, spring rates etc. Thats nice and when I want to make a autoX or road race car I'll buy all of that! In the mean time there IS somekind of a happy median between decent 60 fts and decent handling. Notice the word DECENT. Not championship winning handling, DECENT handling. No I haven't driven a f-body that handles really good or is setup for it but I know what it drove like stock and I know that it handles better and more predictable then before even without the front bar. So that makes my opinion just as important as your all-suspension-knowing opinion....in my opinion. LOL. It's funny how predictable you are and how easy it is to make you go into a rant. I don't think that ANYONE on here that has removed their front bar was under the illusion that it would handle better. Huh. And just maybe the original thread starter wasn't looking for better handling when he took his off.
I also don't think the "handling and braking" section here says anything about being ONLY for autox & RR posts. Most of the people on here use their carrs for street and drag racing applications so would like to find a happy in between setup. Maybe if you tried to help them out instead of being such an *** you would get more business. But I'm sure you have enough from all you autox customers. But some people like to hear different opinions and different setups regardless of how crappy Mr. f-ing Strano thinks it might be.
No I haven't driven a car with a bigger bar but YOU haven't driven mine! But then again I'm sure you've driven one with the exact same setup because you have unlimited f-body experience...
06-01-2006, 02:19 PM
#40
Originally Posted by Sam Strano
I read post after post, day after day that are completely bogus. If you want to believe your car is just fine with a setup like that on it, that's fine. Don't tell everyone else how great it is.
Originally Posted by Sam Strano
What's even funnier to me is that I can turn the tables. Have any of you without front bars, who have HAL's, etc ever driven a car with more front bar?
Originally Posted by Sam Strano
What rips me more than anything is that this is the handling and braking forum. NOT the drag racing forum. You guys are going this for drag racing, and that's fine.
I just think this thread got blown out of proportion for absolutely no reason. Bottom line is no one said your car would handle like a champ without a front bar - but that doesn't mean you'll die without it either.
Whew.