trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Ok. I don't have a dog in this fight, mostly because I just don't care. Both sides have been presented and those on each side are not looking like they are going to move from their position. Therefore, I figured we'd take a stab at bringing out some science and getting some tech into this discussion before the slug fest really gets rolling.

I don't have the exact numbers handy, but working off of the top of my head, the front 30mm sway bar is over 200 inch lbs of rate (give or take a bit), the 32mm is getting into the upper 200's or even quite close to 300 in lbs (I may be low on both numbers). The stock springs are typically 292 in lbs. So, if we are going to ask the springs to do both jobs (being springs and sway bars), we will need to approach double the spring rate of the stock springs. Something around 600 in lbs should get us close. The problem with that is that you'll not find a drag shock that's really happy with that spring rate. So, that's a bit out of the question (and the short, stiff springs will do little to help launches). The only other option we have is to set whatever shocks we have (Hal's, etc) on "kill" which will bring up the rebound damping rate. This will slow the body roll and cause the car to feel much more responsive. It won't limit total body roll however, just how long it takes to fully roll over (until the springs can supply enough resistance to limit any additional roll). That seems to be the approach that several here are using and I'm going to guess it can work to some extent. I won't say that I feel it to be ideal, but it would account for the feeling that "it handles as well as stock", or at least similar.

One other thing to consider. Large rear bars will cause the car to oversteer (become "tailhappy"). A large (25mm drag bar) rear bar and no front bar can make for a vehicle that will want to rotate (spin out) during aggressive driving or evasive actions. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just discussing the things you need to be aware of when driving a car with such a setup. At low speeds, moderate cornering velocity, it will probably behave "well enough", but in emergency lane changes, it could be very eager to spin. It will very likely launch much better than a car with a sway bar, or a larger sway bar, but it will drastically alter the characteristics of the car. Some feel it's worth the trade and others dont, you'll have to decide for yourself.

Be careful out there.

SSblack98

iTrader: (8)

Trackbird, I would like to thank you for your informative and openminded post. I agree almost 100%. Your ideas are very logical and make sense. Alot more sense then just saying "hals are junk" or "taking the front bar off is stupid and suicide" etc.

About the rear drag bar though, I have to say it is alot more flexible then people think. When I first installed it I had the endlinks way to tight and the rear was just as you described: it wanted to rotate at the least aggressive manuever. Felt very tight and loose all at the same time. (That probably sounds stupid but its the best wat to describe it). I almost pulled it off and reinstalled the factory bar until I started playing with the endlinks. If you loosen them up until there is very little preload on the bar then the car feels very mushy and feels like the car is literally moving on the rearend. I have it somewhere in the middle and it feels very much like the stock rear bar did and hooks pretty well.
It definitely isn't the ideal setup for handling but I have never and will never claim it is and I have driven very aggressively on the many twisty backroads where I live and it is now predictable and solid feeling even at triple digit speeds.

I will actually be experimenting with some konis, higher rate springs, and big bars in the near future before I take it to Summit Point for a few track days. I would never attempt that with the current suspension but for the street it works very well and I don't have to worry about getting left spinning at a stoplight.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

what I'd like to say to those who have removed, I have experimented on several AX courses that many engineers who participate in the SAE and work in the automotive industry use. I am currently running nearly twice the front spring rate that most here will ever consider, and yet without the front sway bar, I have discovered that upon emergency manoeuvres that the car has induced snap oversteer.

Yes, I cannot tell anyone here what to do with their car, but I stick to my advice to say that just because you think that it won't kill you, think again. You aren't that great in predicting what road hazards are ahead, so if you want to take that chance on unloading one of your front wheels and induce snap oversteer, just make sure you're the only one around. I was when I was AXing.

BTW, where in the world did anyone assume that I, Sam, or anyone here who's advising not to operate on the street that we never have tried operating without one, especially with any of our cars that are designed with them? How many here have even talked to Sam when it comes to operating without a swaybar? He too knows what has to be done and know the real tradeoffs when the individual spring rates and their respective valvings must be raised in order to compensate for swaybar removal.

dailydriver

For those that street/highway race at 130+ mph with no front bar, skinnies and drag rear bar; please do not insult my intellect by telling me that it is not "instant death" (both yours and other's) if you have to turn the wheel sharply for any reason, of which there are many on the uncontrolled street/hwy. This is not even mentioning (which none/few have) the large loss of braking control capability at those speeds with skinnies. There are no oncoming semis, little kids, SUV piloting while on cell phone soccer moms, or drunk drivers (hopefully) on the drag strip. Of course this does not apply (or at least not as much) to those with these setups who drive like little grannies on the street. How many of those exist??

SSblack98

iTrader: (8)

I will only add that I recently traveled over 4.5 hrs one-way to the ocean and back in a pack of 8 other cars, all quite fast for street cars, and through 4-5 lane traffic, zipping back and forth between lanes and driving quite aggressively so as not to get left behind, (admittedly not safe driving behavior) and never once even at 80 or 100+mph did I ever feel the least bit unsafe, out of control, or like the rear of the car was going to suddenly go flying out from under me during some quick steering maneuver or lane change.
I do have 11" wheels in the rear w/DR's which may help the rear from breaking loose but I don't think stock wheels woudll be much worse. I can't think of doing anything more aggressive then encountered during this trip even if you were trying to avoid something in an "emergency" situation like so many here are so dully worried about.
If you have to "jerk" the wheel so hard as people on here are describing I don't care what is under your car there is a good chance you will loose control. I mean I drive a Beretta everday and I would loose control of it much easier then my f-body during ultra-fast maneuvers and somehow I make it 85 miles roundtrip to work everyday just fine. I'm not saying that something couldn't happen at anytime, especially with all the idiots on the road, but I'm not going to put road race suspension on my car to better avoid some unforeseen emergency when I can drive it as well or better then anyone in a stock suspension car.

So for all the worrie-warts out there...maybe you should focus on all the "irresponsible" people with stock suspension who drive beyond the speed limit. Or maybe everyone should make their cars slower instead of faster cause that would be the safer and more responsible choice...

blind527

iTrader: (8)

I've had my sway bar off for quite some time, absolutely no handling issues with it at all.

Silver99Z28

iTrader: (1)

So finally we come to the insight...

- It is just useless weight
- Removing the sway bar is only eliminating some useless weight from the front.

Maybe the handling is even better without it... ?

Please read the first post from the thread starter... He HAS problems with his car after removing the front sway bar... and THIS was the reason for him to start this...

Do you really think they (GM) put useless but not inexpensive things on their car designs... and all other car builders allaround the world too?

I think you are totally wrong here...
From my own experience, if you are making your car faster by improving its handling or the brakes, the car will (usually) even become SAFER in allday driving, because you push the limits farther.
That doesn't mean, that you should use its potential on public roads! But it comes handy, if you get in trouble...
On the other side, if you remove the front sway bar, to get a few fractions of a second on the quarter mile... You are REDUCING the cars handling limits!
The problem is not the cars behaviour under expected conditions!

One more thing... Here in Germany, every car gets inspected after a heavy accident... By the insurance companies that have to pay for the desaster.
You really need a very fast (second) car to get away, if they find out that you removed or changed anything that was relevant for your cars security.
I would be surprised if this is totally different in the USA.

Sorry for my bad English... I'm not a native English-speaker.

Holger
(One of the worrie-warts)

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

No such thing here as an "after crash inspection", though I could see it being a good idea in some cases. If there is a fatality, they might look more closely at the car, but as a whole, they will not.

Holger, your English is quite good, better than many who use it as their primary language.

SSblack98

iTrader: (8)

#1: I don't think anyone in this thread has stated the front bar is useless weight. Very silly statement.

#2: I never said it doesn't affect handling, just not drastically and disproportionally like some describe at least on my car because everything else is upgraded. Meaning if you stiffen the rest of the car accordingly the negative affects will be much less severe.

#3: Saying that removing it, changing nothing else and not noticing a difference IS, I agree, also an ignorant and uninformed statement.

#4: If nobody else likes my opinion and thinks their bar is so important and they can't drive safely or live without it, that is great. Just don't call others stupid because they can setup their cars to safely live without it.

#5: I wish everyone on here the best and I hope you all have a nice day.

blind527

iTrader: (8)

Well that was not my intention, to say that GM put a useless piece of designing on their cars. You may think I'm wrong because you have a different opinion. When I think a car is "better" I take it it's faster at the strip. I don't care about handling, which is why I took it out. I take corners, and drive exactly how I used to with the sway bar in, and I have not had 1 bad thing happen to me. That's why people make them into drag cars, to perform on the drag strip....Many people have drag cars that are daily drivers. I'm not making my car into a drag car, but I took my front sway bar off to experiment, and I liked it.

I never once inteded that GM made a useless piece of weight etc. etc.

Silver99Z28

iTrader: (1)

I didn't want to turn your words around... maybe it's a problem of my english...

But I still didn't get the point...

If you remove any component from a system, which was designed by an engineer. And than the system works the same way like before for you (wether you can't feel any difference or you never had any issues with handling, which is for what this component was designed is a marginal differnece) and you even LIKE the new systems behaviour... than this component is useless, at least for you... ins't it?

On the other side... if you say it is NOT useless, than you agree in principle, that there are situations where this component is useful and should be there...

Am I thinking to logical...

However... It's just my opinion... and I agree fully with

Holger

LS1vazquez

SSblack98, I really don't want to ham this out any more. However, I have to disagree with your statement that anybody who has to "jerk" the wheel has a good chance of losing it. I fully disagree with that statement, because I was in a situation one time where I had to "jerk" the wheel because a car in front of me kicked up a monster tread that had ripped off of an 18 wheeler. I wasn't going unusually fast, maybe about 80 or so, normal highway speeds but alot faster then what I think most cars rate their emergency lane change meanuvers at.

The reaction was purely instinct, and I put the car in an additude that I have never replicated voluntarely to this day. The entire car just dove for the emergency lane, and as the tread wizzed by I immedietly jerked the car back into the proper lane. The car responded, and I had full suspension unload on the passenger side and the shocks were probably fully compressed on the driver side as the car moved back into the proper lane. It was a very quick move.

In retrospect, Im amazed how composed the car had held it the meanuver. However, thats what the suspension is designed to do... to react faster then you can in an emergency. I for one, would never try to think that I can react around the deficiencies I set up intentionally in the suspension.

I mean, you have seen the evidence, you have seen the numbers, and you have heard what people said. The car just simply cannot work without the front swaybar, not in the fashion that it was designed to.

Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

Nope, no problems with your english at all.

LS1vazquez

Jesus christ dude, for an ASE certified mechanic you have some pretty dense reasoning. What two year community college did you get your training at?

I just love how people take the "mightier then thou" route when I try to explain my purposes. Wag the finger at me because I posted a real life situation? I'd rather admit the reality of the situation then blindly ignore the numbers and the data that all point to the fact that running sans sway bar is detrimental!

I find it just ironic that you offer the mom advice of, "well, street racing is reckless, don't do it." Yet at the same time you removed your bar so you could do what? Oh yes, better wieght transfer for quicker acceleration. Since you obviously just don't do it at the track, you must be Joe Rocket just ready for anybody and everything on the street, huh?

You must be the same guy who removes the core bumper supports from his Fox Body to increase his time by a tenth and completly ignores the threat of crashing. "Oh, well, I be driving real careful, yee haw"

You know, if you really want to lose curb weight I'd removed all those empty cases of Old English from the backseat.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Fixed that for you......

keliente is not a dude. She is female.

Just thought I'd clarify.

I personally feel that it's a dumb thing to remove for street use. But I'm getting too tired to fight these battles anymore.

Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

Kevin, your patience never ceases to amaze me.

LS1vazquez

Oh, okay, that must explain the mood swings and the wild, illrational, random chaotic outbursts and reasoning.

keliente

iTrader: (22)

What are you talking about? I only race at the track. I never talk about street racing because I don't do it. I took my swaybar completely off because I was at the track every week. If I was going to unhook it every thursday anyway, I might as well just take it off and leave it off. Does that make too much sense to you?

You missed the point completely.

Of course the car won't work like it was designed to without a swaybar. We know that already. What we are saying is that you won't DIE if you drive without the thing for a little while. And you think I'm dense?

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LS1vazquez

No, especially since you just got done ragging on my *** about a situation I posted where its was benificial to run the swaybar. After all, I drive a car that contains X amount of horspower more then what is required by a normal sedan, of course the car is going to instigate situations that wouldn't occur with a normal car. However, I do everything I can to maximize my cars ability of survival in said situation.

So it's bad for me to run around with my car with swaybar connected and functioning, and get in the occasional tiff, but its perfectly alright for you to run around all week with it disconnected since you race it ONE day out of the week?

No, that doesn't make any sense. Why not just remove it before you race and put it back on afterwords?

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I'm not sure about that. I guess I'm just getting old. I've been in a few discussions around here that have turned ugly. I'm just out of time to stress out about it. People will be people and there is nothing you can do about it. It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything and did it all the same way. I guess I take some relief in that.....

And, while Kelli (is that the correct spelling?) and I don't agree on this topic, I see no reason to be anything less than a gentleman about it. Everyone seems to want more females with F-bodies (just look at any post that says "Hi, I'm a new girl with a Camaro/Firebird/TA" in the top forum here, it's always headed for 40 pages), we wonder why more women don't stick around when we act like we do.

I say that, even though I'm on your side of this discussion.

Just my thoughts.