keliente

iTrader: (22)

Ok?

Why are you turning my words around? I never once told you it was bad to run a swaybar. Not once. And what works for me, works for me, so why worry

Because I don't feel like the extra labor? I'll take my chances running over little Johnny and crashing my car and all the other bad things that happen when you remove the swaybar

YellowToy/A

iTrader: (1)

This is a good post. I read it for days and will jump in now.

1. I am glad I am not the only who does not agree will Sam all the time.

2. If in a hard corner a sway bar end link brakes the car will swap ends.

3. If you have a big bar in the back and no bar in the front at 140MPH it does not fell to bad.(Speed racer showed me.)

4. Track told use that the bar will add about 200 to 300 lb/in of spring rate in a trun. With no bar the car will roll more and faster until it hits the bump stop.

5. It will still handle better without a bar then most car on the road, in a high speed lane change.

6 Black ss drives faster without a bar than i drive with a bar and konis and 400 lb/in springs. He keep the car pointed in the correct dircetion at all times.

6. Track is the only who add any real input in this thing.

7. If a real engineer designed our cars they would not have decarb shocks.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

This thread is exhausted and should die along with the silliness that some have here when it comes to the reluctancy of reinstallation of their swaybar for the street. It's not that difficult at all, especially considering that one will even prepare to get the most of what he/she will do for the track.

As I said before, unless you have some sort of crystal ball (that is if they work), you cannot predict an emergency manoeuvre. Unless you have much stiffer springs that what I run, don't anybody here even think that you won't unload one of the front tyres if you must make a sudden manoeuvre completely without the front sway bar. The unloading isn't detectable until it's too late. Yes, one can have a sway bar combination that can cause snap oversteer, however it's just plain moronic not to reinstall the bar for the street, especially when the differences in diameters between having 0mm for the front vs. 19/21mm for the rear combined with front spring rates that probably don't even exceed 400 (don't anybody here even claim their max progressive rates help either. Even if they have a max of 450, it's still way inadequate). It's a lot more important than many will even think around here.

Death, the death of others, and personal injury isn't just the only concern. Heck, if one were to neglect the whole human concern (which is already obvious from what some of the lemmings here typed), then I guess it will come to a matter of losing the car, which I'm sure has plenty of insurance. As I mentioned the end user is responsible for the decision, however I choose to use what works, and yes, even the OE sway bars for the street works quite well in that respect. After all, it's not too surprising that many here will street race, so doing something silly that this whole thread is about doesn't surprise me one bit.

Again, unless you have much experience with emergency manoeuvres, don't say that you won't die, because even if the the area around the road is very flat with few land features and practically no human or animal population, you do increase the chance of a roll over. Making claims of driving without one for 10 years is really no different claim than the silly card counters in poker. You may be lucky with what little skills that may have kept the car right side up for all that time, but that doesn't mean nothing wrong will not happen. Yes, experimentation is needed, however this whole thread is now based on gambling and it's being beat like a dead horse.

YellowToy/A

iTrader: (1)

foxxtron

If a bar addes 200 spring rate to the front, and u have 500 lb/in spings(not hard to find here) that is the stock rate. I have 400 lb/in and think I should have gotten 500. I would still run a bar but without one, I would get stock handling. Car will drive with out a bar. Ask speed racer he will show u(he did me).

SSblack98

iTrader: (8)

Yes foxxtron, let him show you. Or I will show you. Or anyone that isn't closeminded about the subject and is intelligent enough to setup their car safely WITHOUT a front bar will show you.

Or you can keep being narrow-minded like the rest of the "oh my god you might have an emergency and kill a young child" group on here and continue to call us (without front bars) all idiots and morons and such.

I don't think people are stupid either way. My only point is that it IS possible to drive SAFELY without a front bar even though you and others think its not.

And I also agree that this thread has become pointless and should be closed. Too many closeminded individuals to get a point across apparently.

Good luck to all.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Nope, not quite so. I run much higher than 500, and yes, I have tried, there is much more than the spring rate itself at work here. If that was the case, I'd be agreeing with what you guys are saying, but it's not that simple.

The fact of the matter is that it's not just spring rates at work here, but the overall individual spring rates on each corner. The sway bar is quite an interesting piece of work here.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

I should add that ride height is another consideration here. I'll let you guys guess the other factors, because I won't give it all away, especially my spring rates. Oh, remember those other factors that I have mentioned over other threads as well?

Also, I am building a "certain vehicle" without the anti-roll bar configuration, and it definitely doesn't need one. Believe me, if it was so simple as raising individual corner spring rates, I'd definitely say so, however there are huge tradeoffs with that. After all, isn't most of the sway bar mostly designed to reduce the body sway, and the springs mostly to maintain proper ride height and wheel grip through the corners, all of this along with proper damping?

Here's some food for thought: http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handlin...antiroll.shtml

JoeyAnderson

iTrader: (20)

Sorry dude, I'd reply to this but I'm still too busy laughing about you thinking that riding with the windows down makes the car create more torque.

Open mouth, insert pistol, pull trigger. It's not that hard, my friend...

YellowToy/A

iTrader: (1)

Foxxtron

I think it is about grip for each corner and overall grip. I think that our cars will have more overall grip without a sway bar than most other cars with. Most here will have 275s or more. I think tires will make as much differance as a bar. The point here is most f-bodys that r owned by people here will handle better with out a bar than most other cars.

LS1vazquez

Thank you for your very informative and thoughtful input to this thread.

LS1vazquez

Ooohhh..... you know what this calls for?

Gran Turismo 4 testing.

LS1vazquez

Okay guys and girls, Im doing preliminary testing with GT4, Im still into it, but so far results are surprising to say the least.

Sam, I think your about to get debunked by a video game.

Full report and screen caps to come soon.

JoeyAnderson

iTrader: (20)

:: The scene opens as the camera zooms in upon LS1vazquez driving his fourth-generation F-Body down a deserted road. It is a cold winter night, icicles hanging from the trees and snow on the ground. As the camera gets nearer, you can see the driver wearing mittens and a stocking cap, teeth chattering, with both windows down. He shifts into third gear, and then his lips start to move... ::

"Man, this thing is a t-t-torque monster tonite!"

:: scene closes ::

Honda Hunter

iTrader: (8)

This thread just became intresting.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I didn't want to get too far into the tech in my first post. I was just trying to illustrate that you are using shocks to cover for the lack of physical resistance and how far off that could be.

The sway bar is more complex than just changing springs would have you believe. I was trying to keep this light and give an example of why it's not the same without getting everyone into a complex discussion of dynamics.

Foxxtron is right, there is more to it than that......

LS1vazquez

All right ladies and gents, the game is over and the preliminary results are in. I have alot of GT4 screen caps to go along with this, but it will take me FOREVER to upload on my dial up... so I'll just give the report.

I ran the car on two tracks... one a test track, and the other the Numbringurg. After reviewing the playbacks, the test track tells the entire story and the Germany track just reinforces that conclusion.

Now, for the purpose of this test, I didn't go for times. Instead, I concentrated on how well the car would hold the line, and then I wanted to see if the car was indeed prone to snap oversteer as discussed in the thread.

The test car was the 4th Gen Camaro, with the full racing suspension so I could set the swaybar. I set the specs on the car as accuratly as I could to reflect the real 4th gen, and the only changes I made were the front swaybar strength.

Now of course, people are going to call shenanigans on this test, mostly because A) its a video game B) I couldn't totally eliminate the swaybar, so the game results reflected minimal, *but still present* swaybar strength, and C) its a video game. However, this is the best we have at this time.

As a final note, to accuratly reflect the true driving dynamics of a real life F-Body, I went ahead and put the car on a non-racing radial. Basically, I put it on a comfort/sport oriented tire that would accuratly reflect the tread that 3/4s the F-Bodies out there are rolling on.

So, with that all said and done, I ran the test with two conditions, one with the traction control on, and one with the traction control off. Both times I ran with the front sway bar all the way high, and all the way low.

Additionally, I conducted my testing with the Logitech racing wheel, with pretty realistic feedback and a 900 degree range of rotation. Defiently alot better and more realistic then what the rumble pad will give you.


*Results for TCS ON*

Now this surprised me, and the results basically validated both claims so far from the thread. With the bar set to full high, I basically hustled the Camaro through the quick, sub minute course. The car tracked the line accuratly, didn't serve up any evil surprises, and for the most part felt steady and solid through the entire track. The course, while being small, presented every avenue of possible turn setups, the biggest being a short chicane followed by a 90 degree sweeper. The Camaro went through the course and finished with minimal drama, which was no surprise to me.

Now for the bar set all the way low. While not totally snipped, I would have expected some type of handling difference. I went through the course the same way, and thats when I recieved my biggest surprise. The car still tracked the line accuratly, didn't serve up any evil surprises, and for the most part felt solid and steady through the entire track. I was able to hold my turns at close to, if not right at, the same speed as the big swaybar equipped Camaro, and the Camaro actually passed through the course with minimal fuss.

I thought it was a fluke, so I ran the course three more times, eventually surpassing the swaybar Camaros time and beating it, even though it wasn't a time trial. This was a big surprise. For all intents and purposes, the car with the small bar handled just as well as the Camaro with the full sized bar.

So, on the surface, it seemed that the "no sway bar" people finally had their proof. The car moved just as well with little bar, and if anything, showed that it was entirly possible to do some spirited driving without bringing out the evil, snap oversteer induced kill monster in the car.

Then, I turned the traction control off.

Two interesting things happened. First of all, the bar equipped Camaro just hustled, and the no-bar equipped Camaro also hustled, except in the wrong direction. While this wasn't immidietly apparent while driving, reviewing the playback later indicated that the no-bar equipped Camaro displayed massive amounts of understeer. I mean, it was bad. I doubt it was a placebo effect on my part, because I was essentially redriving the same car on the same course with just two changes, but the no-bar Camaro many times overshoot the apex and wandered close to, if not completly off road. I found myself compensating for this in two ways, either through massive trail braking or applying copius amounts of throttle to waggle the rear end back in the right direction. Still not good however. While I was able to keep up with the bar equipped Camaro, there was just more steering input, more throttle input, and more braking input required. It was not as smooth as it should have been.

On the plus side however, I did notice that the small bar equipped Camaro had a tendacy to track better during heavy acceleration. Unlike the heavy bar camaro, whose nose tended to dart left and right under heavy application of throttle, the small bar Camaro kinda wallowed, and the nose gave in to the whim of the rear tires. So in that case, the no sway bar peoples points were validated.

However, it all came to a decisive victory when the small bar equipped Camaro displayed the snap oversteer tendacy. Once on the small course, and twice on the Numbringurg course. It happened fast, too. I rewatch the small course vid and Im still not too completly sure how it happened.

What I do know is that I was in the car on its third lap, exploring what it was capable of and wondering just how the no bar equipped Camaro could handle like this, when the rumble strip at the end of the chicane basically tossed the Camaro sideways onto the road. The rear end went loose, and then basically snapped back around just like a few members on this board said it would. I wasn't going that fast either...probably around 50-60 MPH.. well within the potential range of a real life Camaro running this exact same setup.

So essentially, there you have it. A non-biased play by play of what happened. The Germany ring essential showed the same tendacy to toss the Camaros *** end up into the air and make it come around in a uncontrolled fashioned when running little bar.

Another thing for sure is that after reviewing this, people running no bar have to be understeering like a ****. Maybe its not evident since you instinctivly compensate with braking and throttle action, but one thing is for sure... the bar definetly has an effect, it isn't just there as dead weight.

SladeX

I think the lot of you that say it handles fine don't realize a very important thing about driving. Yourself.

We have an innate tendancy to adapt to situations to a point where it feels natural to us. The previous post pointed out that fact well, throttle modulation, braking, steering input is all something we can and will do to keep our cars under a sense of control. The thing is, having that leeway to keep the car under control. Until you've gone into a situation where one second you had it, the next it was gone, you don't actually realize how important it is to have a component in a snap reaction situation.

Then again, you probably don't drive in places that the swaybar advocated drive. Be it 10 years driving experience to 1 year to 30 years. I've seen drivers do stupid **** that suprises and scares the **** out of me for being so damn reckless. Just coming home tonight I saw some kid in a hatchback of some sort decide to race another kid and downshift a gear IN THE RAIN, IN TRAFFIC and subsequently LOOSE it. I found myself going across 4 lanes and back avoiding the chaos that ensued from the spinout. **** happens...

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

I can agree with the fact of the F-body being not so unwieldy without the sway bar in front compared to some other vehicles, however to keep things ceteris parabis, were talking about the sway bar with concerns with the F-body, and many here with mods like yours and usually not like mine (even my street vehicle has some of the nitpicks discussed on ffrax [thanks trackbird and all of the frrax members]). I doubt that many here will even go to the extent that I , Sam, trackbird have done, even though I think they should (probably not since there is a lot of money to be spent on items that will not stay on the car permanently, such as several sets of 2.5" I.D. springs, and even several diameter sets of front and rear swaybars).

Okay, now on to the hard pill to swallow. While tyres are indeed a huge link, they will not be able to maintain the grip without the proper articluation (physical not figurative) of the suspension parts, in this case, the springs, the swaybar (stabiliser bars is what I prefer to call them), and last but not necessarily least (drum roll) the proper bushings/spherical bearings. The springs are mostly necessary for the individual corners, while the sway bar is really designed with the body sway control in mind. Proper designed sway bars have a specific MOI (usually through the O.D.) that make this simple bar perform such an important yet underestimated duty. Again to state, it's still possible to run on the street without a sway bar, but none here have mentioned usable spring rates to completely compensate for the roll resistance that is needed when called upon (and once again, proper valvings). Again, even with sticky tyres, you can unload one end of the "axle" (front end doesn't have one per se) and with that can cause some unwieldy action that even the best of drivers around here cannot manoeuvre easily out of.

To summarise this, it's just impossible to predict when the "time has come", however I can say that with much of the spring rates around here for most street cars being used without a front sway bar, it's just plain silly to take a chance on something that is well known by experienced drivers. Plainly put, people here need to be careful with suggesting with solely "feelings" and "good luck" reinforced by false wisdom. I never rest on my laurels of any of these discussion, and if any of you think I place blind faith in some of the people I mention around here, think again. I am always playing devil's advocate with many of the modifications that have even the highest efficacy.

Now for the general thread readers with all of what I mentioned, I will restate that each person can attempt what they can, and hopefully nothing terrible happens, but again, there are differences with gambling and experimentation, and what I mean by that is gambling has less control factors, and experimentation usually has much more realistic control factors, even if some of the factors are flawed. Again, running with essentially a '0mm' diameter front sway bar combined with front springs of most common configurations around this site, with the vavlings set for a max of what most "street" Koni's (8241 and 8242) are capable of, matched with essentially a rear configuration of around 19-22mm diameter bar combined with, the common rear spring combinations, PHB (aftermarket or OE) in stock location, is plainly asking for disaster. I have ran this on an AX course that's similar to what many automotive companies and popular atuomobile magazines use (consmer and motorsport) and after experiencing snap oversteer very early of the courses, even after many trials, I will stick to this statement:

EXPERIENCED DRIVER ON CLOSED COURSE. DO NOT ATTEMPT ON PUBLIC ROADS.

With that said unless one has a suspension that will compensate for a "0mm" diameter sway bar, remove your sway for the track, replace for the street.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

I apologise for that trackbird. The statement wasn't directed towards you, since you're quite knowledgable, and I think you did do the right thing. I posted it because of the two members who miscontrued what you posted. I think it was good that you kept it rudimentary, however those two members oversimplified it, which could be nice, but unfortunatley physics has much more in store than just overall spring rates alone.

Once again, thanks for understanding.

partyhardoo69

iTrader: (1)

I only read the first two pages but....

When i bought my 98 camaro it didn’t have a front sway bar. This car handled better in the rain then my old car (99 grand prix gtp with upgraded struts) did on a sunny day. Granted this car does have other suspension mods, but i thought it was normal. I put the bar in last night and am going for a ride in a lil while.