trackbird

iTrader: (4)

The reason it will drive off the jack once you grab the emergency brake is:

The dif can't tell the difference between traction from a tire and traction from a brake. The brake absorbs energy (and turns it into heat...of course) and the diff can't tell the difference. It sees 50 ft lbs that the brake is absorbing (say you use enough brake to stop the wheel) and the other wheel can get 2.3 times that amount (which will overcome the force needed to spin the other brake and leave 1.3 times that amount of torque to move the car. The next time you have one wheel on ice and the other on wet pavement and are stuck, remember to gently grab the e-brake. Just thought i better explain that further.....

BlackBird55

iTrader: (1)

Trackbird the reason the car won't drive off the jack is becasue a torsen is a torque multiplier if one wheel looses traction then it can carry zero torque. 0*0=0 so the car won't move. The quaife site is much clearer on explaining how a torsen works, but we've gotten way off topic.

quaife

goto atb differentials

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I agree that it senses torque not speed, but even torsen says they put additional torque to the inside wheel...look at the second paragraph under section 5.2.

BlackBird55

iTrader: (1)

Trackbird, i beleive what this is describing is what happens at low speed (turning in a parking lot).

Lets backup for a minute. If what you said is true and a torque biasing diff transfers torque to the inside wheel during a turn than that means a torsen would hurt handling. This is the opposite of what is true. Torque biasings diffs transfer torque to the wheel with the most available traction i.e. the outside wheel. That is why they are used in road race cars world wide. You don't have to take my word for it, that's fine, a good checks and balance is what this board needs to be called ls1TECH. So i would suggest e-mailing torsen. I've talked to them before about an application i was working on. They are very friendly and enjoy setting people straight. Post back with what you find out. Good Luck!

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: BlackBird55 ]</small>

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Ok....I called Torsen today and spoke to Tom in the tech department. The conversation went about like this:

"Tom, I had a quick question for you about the characteristics of the torsen rear diffs. A fellow camaro owner mentioned that when he accelerates aggressively in a corner, his car seems to push..."-me

"ok"-Tom

"We then began discussing the effects of a torque biasing differential on the handling characteristics of a rear drive car with a reasonable amount of power and I wondered if you could clarify something for me"-me

"Sure...what did you need?"-Tom

"If you are driving a Camaro with a torsen rear diff in a corner, like a cloverleaf on an exit ramp...something at moderate speed and you begin to accelerate briskly, but not hard enough to actually "spin" the rear wheels, which wheel will receive most of the engines power?"-me

"The inside wheel will begin to see more of the engines power"-Tom

"Could this cause the vehicle to "push"?"-me

"Yes"-Tom

"Until you begin to actually spin the inside tire, then what happens?"-me

"Once the inside tire begins to spin (as in make smoke, or try to anyway), the car will transfer more power to the outside wheel and the car will then "tighten up" and begin to turn into the corner"-Tom

"Ahh....just as I read in your technical paper online, the acrobat file."-me

"That seems to be a really common discussion on message boards"-Tom

"Thanks....I'll let everyone know"-me

I think the difference in our points of view is that I was thinking of accelerating with no wheel spin, and your situation would be after some wheelspin. If anyone wants to check with torsen, you can reach them at 585-464-5000 and ask for Tech support. Happy corner carving!!!!!!!!

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Doug....I wanted to apoligize, I didn't mean to hijack your thread here.....

Thanks,

Kevin

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

BlackBird55, I appreciate your comments and your zeal. I own Mr. Smith's book collection and have read a vast majority of what he ahs to say. He definitely makes some very good points.

I also reference Mr. Puhn's writing's as well as a very good book by Alain Prost called "Competition Driving".

I took what you said to heart and began second guessing all that I've been taught and practiced. A good driver has to able to admit he doesn't know everything and do a little research. So, I did ...

Over the past year, I have downloaded several in-car captures from David Farmer's C5 who competes in the Speedchannel World Challenge.

I watched and listened closely for trail braking. Mr. Farmer followed what appers to be the BMWs of Mike Galatti and Derek Bell.

The brake lights clearly go out on those BMWs and Mr. Farmer is clearly on the throttle at turn in. ANd he uses the clutch to downshift which is very apparent by the way the RPMs vary (not sure why he doesn't rev match). So he doesn't left foot brake.

So I stand by what I've been taught and now what I've observed ... that trailbraking has very specific and limited use, especially for high HP, RWD cars.

So, it appears you haven't convinced me of trailbraking's use and I doubt I've changed your mind.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by trackbird:
<strong> Doug....I wanted to apoligize, I didn't mean to hijack your thread here.....

Thanks,

Kevin </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ditto

Jocko1960

Lol, so a larger rear sway bar..... lol
thanks guys was an interesting conversation.