JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Another picture.



This may be a different design, but it is a neat cutaway picture.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (39)

I would like to hear more about this. So if I read this right these would just replace the springs and you can use a good dampener like Koni's? What about the rear?

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Yes, that is correct.
The rears are not a problem as they are a separate spring and shock. You have 2 main choices. A conventional bag



or a sleeve type bag.



Both can cost as little as $60. The main difference is the double convoluted bag can handle more weight, but may ride stiff while the sleeve bag handles less weight, but rides better. You see sleeve bags a lot on the back of cars because of the softer spring rates used in back.

Alt

iTrader: (6)

Well then Jason what shock can you recommend for the rear of my car? airridetech used to use a QA1 shock but the last time I spoke with them they were shying away for a different one specs unknown to me.

As far as related to the Mercedes just put flow restrictors on it along with pneumatic mufflers and you can go as slow as you wish. As far as bouncing around, most of the time thats for the hoppers and they use totally different **** to do what they do.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

As for rear shocks, it depends on your budget. Bilsteins on the low end and single adjustable Koni on the high end. Last time I checked the Bilsteins are about $80ea and the Koni SA were $150ea. Now what's sweet about the Koni SA is the low speed rebound control. This is what controls your body movement. At full soft it rides really well, but as you firm it up the rear of the car will firm up as well reducing lift under braking as reducing sway with quick lane changes. The adjustment **** is right behind the seat so it's easy to adjust. These are what I run and recommend.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

The hoppers I've seen tend to run highly compressed nitrogen. You can get a tank for about $200 and a pressure regulator for about $200. You don't need a pump. These setups let you run really high pressure and can fill the bags really quickly over and over without having to wait for the pump to build pressure. Big 1/2" lines are also used. They also typically run the double convoluted bags, just high pressure units. It's neat stuff, but not for me. I have seen the flow restrictors and mufflers you mention. That's neat also. I may use 3/8" lines, solenoids and just use those devices to slow it down. That way I can have more control. It doesn't cost much more either. I'll use a conventional pump and small tank. I could probably get by without a tank if I used a digital controller to raise the car at crank up, but it may not be fast enough for when I come up to a steep driveway and want to raise the car fast so I don't hold up any traffic. It's those darn digital controllers that are killing me on the price. Cheapest I saw was like $500, but they go up to over $1000. This is the cost of convenience. I think I may just do the front bags and inflate them manually with a shop compressor. With the Koni SA shocks I should be able to get a feel for the setup and whether or not I want to continue messing with it. If it feels too soft and I lose the sporty feeling I have an alternate idea to adjust my coilovers to a lower ride height and then use a 3" air cylinder to raise the suspension back up to the current height. This should maintain the performance for sure and it's cheaper as the cylinders can be had for $40ea or so. I'm just having trouble finding room for them up front.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Damn, I just saw that they have dual needle guages to monitor pressure. So one guage for 2 bags. Sweet! Only $22.



Of course if you want a digital gauge it jumps to like $190 plus another $90 for 4 sending units. These air systems have some huge price swings.

If anyone has seen a basic controller that will raise the car on startup and lower it when turned off for under $500, please let me know. I figure I can run a couple of switches to give me manual control for steep driveways and such.

Check out this 4 gallon pancake tank for $100. It fits where a spare tire would. 8"x16"



Anyone know how the tank size effects the rise time? I saw a 2 gallon tank system and they said the rise time was 12-15 seconds. Pretty slow. Then a 5 gallon tank system with the same compressor and line sizes and they say the rise time is 5-8 seconds. Is it mainly tank size or some other factor that can effect rise time on a low pressure street system?

Alt

iTrader: (6)

Line size affects rise time more than the tank does. Though if you're running a small tank your compressor will be on most of the time trying to make up for the lost air. Rear bags on the camaro should be around ~60lbs of air so if you have 5 gallons of 150psi you'll fill as fast as your line size will allow. 3/8 is common if its too fast place flow restrictors in line to the bag after the valve. Yes those dual needle gauges are pretty cool. 2 of those and a tank pressure gauge fill up my triple pod pillar. As far as going w/o a tank I would highly suggest against it. Its always nice to have some reserve air and you can tap a quick connect off the tank so you can always refill a tire in need.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Cool info, thanks.
So would you recommend at least a 4-5 gallon tank?

How fast do you think 3/8 line could raise our cars with say a 4-5 gallon tank? Are we in the 5 second range or the 15 second range? Hopefully, not slower than that.

I don't need my car to pop up real quick, but more than 5 seconds would be too slow in my opinion.

Alt

iTrader: (6)

3/8 line at 150psi with 3/8 valves you're looking at ~2 seconds to raise the car to height. The once you have a tank that can supply a total raise of the vehicle any extra volume is "play air" to go up and down with at your leisure. You can make it slower with either smaller valves, smaller lines, or flow restrictors. I would recommend limiting flow as 3/8 is normally standard and you don't need to go smaller than that. There is a video of an orange camaro on bags somewhere that was floating on camarov6.com for a while. I spoke with the guy about his setup and it was more like a standard universal swap as opposed to something fitted for the vehicle. I recommend a 5 gallon tank 3/8 line and (8) 3/8 valves along with a 10 switch box for total control of the vehicle. With 8 valves you have 4 fill and 4 dump so one set of valves for each individual wheel. Perfect for setting the car level and compensating for another passenger on the side or a heavy load in the back. The 10 switch box is commonly prewired for all bags, left side, right side, front, rear, and individual control. One could skimp out on total control for tieing the fronts together and the rears together so only 4 valves are needed. If you have any other questions that I havn't answered yet please make me aware as I am more than willing to offer any assistance I can.

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

if you want quiet bags, its all in the valves that are used. i've always liked slam specialties stealth valve

slamspecialties.com

click on the valves link on the left and the DSV valve appears, click for more info to learn more

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

neither bilsteins or koni's will be able to handle the constant pressure of being 'layed out' continuously. they will both blow within a year of use is my guess

Alt

iTrader: (6)

So just a standard crap shock for the rear then?

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I don't know what your refering to. Why do you think they will not last or "blow"?

Crap? If you want to spend more you can get some Motons or Penske racing shocks, but your looking at over $1000. I seriously doubt you would need those for any type of street driven car. Even for autocross and track use the Koni's work real well.

slick1851

Couldnt sam custom valve either shock to handle the air bags so they dont blow out?

Alt

iTrader: (6)

Dude I have a lot of money in my suspension setup sitting right here in my basement and partially in my car already. If I don't have to put an expensive shock on the rear I'll replace it with a knock off every year or 2. *shrug*

The only problem I am having with my system currently is where I'm going to mount my valve manifold. In the convertible I'm not left with a lot of space in the trunk.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Why would anyone come up with the idea that the shocks would somehow be damaged? They don't "blow out" with metal springs, not even 700 hundred pounders up front.The air spring rates should be somewhere close to stock I'm guessing. The stock 300lb springs are pretty soft, too. I just don't see how any kind of shock damage could occur.

If you can afford the adjustable Koni SA rears, then that's what I would get. The adjustable rebound makes a big difference in the feel and handling of the car.

I can't remember your car details, do you have a thread showing the suspension setup?

How big is your valve manifold? Would it tuck in above the vert pump in the trunk?

As far as mounting manifolds go, do they need to be easily accessed or even inside the car?

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

[QUOTE=JasonWW;8120389]I don't know what your refering to. Why do you think they will not last or "blow"?


QUOTE]

just think about it for a sec. its like lowering a car on sportlines with stock decarbons or off the shelf Bilsteins: they arent made for it, they'll blow. car performace shocks can't handle the constant abuse of a bag setup. yes they can handle autocross and track but that is completely different usages, they are under working conditions, not under un-do stress of being laid out...



on that note, i don't know what shock for our cars can handle it...maybe sam would know? i dunno.



but if i was to bag something, itd be a 2000+ Tahoe/Denali or 99-2006 Silverado

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Yes, I've thought about it. In your above example of Sportlines, the shocks will not "blow". Why do you think that? Those particular springs do not have enough rate for the compression travel they provide. Based on that alone they are going to be bottoming out which means a harsh ride over bumps. Better shocks can help, but those springs are the real problem, not the shocks. Even if you do use those shocks with those springs, it's not going to hurt the shocks any. Changing the shock valving isn't going to help either.

As for the "the constant abuse of a bag setup" I can only conclude your talking about hopping the car. In those setups you will probably not use a shock at all, but I have no intention of making the car hop. I'm talking about performance handling and raising the car over a 3-4 second period which is no problem at all for the shock.

Maybe you can explain what you mean by "the un-do stress of being laid out" as we seem to have a communication problem.

Alt

iTrader: (6)

If I park my car and before I park it I lay it out - take all of the air out of the bags then he's saying there will be un-do stress on the shock as the car is just sitting there at its lowest point. Though when they're shipped don't they come that way already compressed?