how much of an improvement would I see from upgrading Shocks?
02-13-2008, 06:03 PM
#21
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I don't really recall what the car is, or what you have done. I'd recommend staring with an F-stock legal car, which is MUCH cheaper to setup (really only shocks and a front bar along with the tires). And you can build on to that, which is what I did with my car. Moved from FS to ESP.
You won't like it, but the shocks are the most major problem with the car so that's where I always start. I don't consider an alignment so much of a mod because all cars need them no matter the use. It does help, but the major issues as you drive the car down the road aren't alignment based. Shocks first, bar (front only for FS, or both for ESP cars), springs, PHB are the next items up. Though if you can swing shocks and springs at the same time it's only smart to do them together to save some installation costs.
You won't like it, but the shocks are the most major problem with the car so that's where I always start. I don't consider an alignment so much of a mod because all cars need them no matter the use. It does help, but the major issues as you drive the car down the road aren't alignment based. Shocks first, bar (front only for FS, or both for ESP cars), springs, PHB are the next items up. Though if you can swing shocks and springs at the same time it's only smart to do them together to save some installation costs.
02-13-2008, 06:08 PM
#22
I make a 35mm hollow front bar which is just the ticket. Most everything tosses you out of FS, including springs. Really only shocks, front bar, brake pads, fluids, alignment within factory range of adjustment, a cat-back exhaust, air filter element (in the stock box) and different tires are legal for FS (a few other small things too).
What is your car, and what is done to it?????
What is your car, and what is done to it?????
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02-13-2008, 06:21 PM
#23
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It's a 98 WS6 M6, It's completely stock except for hawk brake pads, borla catback, and a SLP lid (which I can go back to stock)
If I did get the shocks and bar how would my car handle compared to something like an STi or Evo?
If I did get the shocks and bar how would my car handle compared to something like an STi or Evo?
02-13-2008, 06:38 PM
#24
Dump the lid and it's an F-stock car. You car is heavier, and not nearly as sophisticated on the suspension side. You are comparing apples and oranges and it depends on what you do. In FS you only need to worry about other pony cars, not things like those psuedo rally-cars. In ESP trim.... I can run very similar times to Z06's.
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02-13-2008, 11:31 PM
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Dump the lid and it's an F-stock car. You car is heavier, and not nearly as sophisticated on the suspension side. You are comparing apples and oranges and it depends on what you do. In FS you only need to worry about other pony cars, not things like those psuedo rally-cars. In ESP trim.... I can run very similar times to Z06's.
02-14-2008, 10:38 AM
#26
SCCA most certainly has an F-stock class. I won the National Championship in it last year.... Maybe you aren't looking at an SCCA club, but all the classes you listed are available in SCCA, as well as E, F, G, and HS as well.
2006 Solo Nationals. I won ESP in my Camaro. One of my best friends won ASP in his Z06. I helped with his setup. After about 100 seconds of counted course time, he was about 2 seconds ahead of me in my Camaro. And he can drive, he's beaten me and I've beaten him in the same cars so it wasn't that I was better. I'm not always that close, but other times I've been closer.
The cars run the same category and ruleset. Both have headers, flywheels, bigger wheels, race seats, etc. The Z06 is 400 pounds lighter has more power and better gearing. The Camaro works pretty well in comparion.
2006 Solo Nationals. I won ESP in my Camaro. One of my best friends won ASP in his Z06. I helped with his setup. After about 100 seconds of counted course time, he was about 2 seconds ahead of me in my Camaro. And he can drive, he's beaten me and I've beaten him in the same cars so it wasn't that I was better. I'm not always that close, but other times I've been closer.
The cars run the same category and ruleset. Both have headers, flywheels, bigger wheels, race seats, etc. The Z06 is 400 pounds lighter has more power and better gearing. The Camaro works pretty well in comparion.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
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2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
02-14-2008, 03:01 PM
#27
As a reference, do shocks first. Look at my mods, I have most all the suspension mods, and they all made incremental differences/improvements in control and predictability without much of a penalty in ride. However, the shocks alone - Bilsteins at that - made more difference than all the other pieces combined. Konis are said to be as big a step up over Bilsteins as Bilsteins are over stock. Save your money, ride in a Koni-ized car, and you will get those. If you really are going to auto-cross this car, don't do anything else. You could probably do Konis and Sam's bars and be happy. Shocks make these cars a totally different experience. They make the car a real car, not just a nice drive train with a shitty old body slapped on it. Shocks first, period, don't make the same mistake many others did/do. If I had it to do all over again, I would do Konis and bars first, period. Listen to Sam, he knows what he's talking about and has many happy customers (myself included) to back his claims.
02-14-2008, 04:14 PM
#28
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As a reference, do shocks first. Look at my mods, I have most all the suspension mods, and they all made incremental differences/improvements in control and predictability without much of a penalty in ride. However, the shocks alone - Bilsteins at that - made more difference than all the other pieces combined. Konis are said to be as big a step up over Bilsteins as Bilsteins are over stock. Save your money, ride in a Koni-ized car, and you will get those. If you really are going to auto-cross this car, don't do anything else. You could probably do Konis and Sam's bars and be happy. Shocks make these cars a totally different experience. They make the car a real car, not just a nice drive train with a shitty old body slapped on it. Shocks first, period, don't make the same mistake many others did/do. If I had it to do all over again, I would do Konis and bars first, period. Listen to Sam, he knows what he's talking about and has many happy customers (myself included) to back his claims.
Another stupid question, I heard somone say that Koni's made a differance in ride height, that isn't true is it?
02-14-2008, 04:21 PM
#29
The fronts have two different spring perch positions, so yes, it's true. For FS (assuming we are thinking of this) you must use the stock/upper one. The way we mess with height in the rear is by removing the spring isolator, but that again would not be legal for an FS autox car.
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02-15-2008, 07:18 AM
#32
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FWIW, I have Strano springs and Koni SA shocks and it's clearly more comfortable than my STOCK Subaru STI. It's so evident when driving over small uneven bumps on highways, the Camaro is more comfortable hands down. That's just my opinion
You also were concerned about 2 settings on shocks were only allowed in stock. That means two adjustment ***** are allowed. So any single adjustable shock with multiple settings is legal, as well as double adjustable shocks with multiple settings on each ****. Just wanted to clarify that for you. The SCCA rules aren't always easy to interpret.
Maybe the local club you are running with has their own classification system possibly and that's why you don't see FS? My local club has their own classification system, but it sits over the top of the SCCA existing classes. If you are and FS car then you go in class G or H (just for my local club)
And if you are considering autocrossing, do not hesitate to talk to Sam!
02-15-2008, 06:54 PM
#34
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The fronts have two different spring perch positions, so yes, it's true. For FS (assuming we are thinking of this) you must use the stock/upper one. The way we mess with height in the rear is by removing the spring isolator, but that again would not be legal for an FS autox car.
Thanks alot for explaining all of this to me. It's been a real help. I would have never thought shocks would make such a huge differance.
And here is the url for the AutoX group around here. www.wwscc.org
02-15-2008, 11:05 PM
#35
Ok, thanks again. But if I did use the lower mount and I did remove the spring isolater then how much would it lower the car? (I'm only asking for cosmetic sake)
Thanks alot for explaining all of this to me. It's been a real help. I would have never thought shocks would make such a huge differance.
And here is the url for the AutoX group around here. www.wwscc.org
Thanks alot for explaining all of this to me. It's been a real help. I would have never thought shocks would make such a huge differance.
And here is the url for the AutoX group around here. www.wwscc.org