Pontiac, Saturn and Saab gone .
11-28-2008, 08:52 AM
#21
I think they should also get rid of Buick.
Keep: Chevy (cars), GMC (trucks), Cadillac (luxury)
Pontiac has a poor reputation to most auto buyers, as they are reminded of the crapbox plastic-cladded junk they produced in the 80s and 90s. It is also a redundant brand, with most models shared by Chevrolet. Chevrolet has a better reputation overall.
Keep: Chevy (cars), GMC (trucks), Cadillac (luxury)
Pontiac has a poor reputation to most auto buyers, as they are reminded of the crapbox plastic-cladded junk they produced in the 80s and 90s. It is also a redundant brand, with most models shared by Chevrolet. Chevrolet has a better reputation overall.
11-28-2008, 09:08 AM
#23
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Offering different engines in the same car isn't a problem, but when you're trying to cut costs, it just doesn't make sense to reinvent the same car two or three times.
And talking about Pontiac "back in the day" is completely irrelevant now. It doesn't matter if the Ventura was more reliable than the Nova in 1972, we're talking about TODAY.
-Mike
And talking about Pontiac "back in the day" is completely irrelevant now. It doesn't matter if the Ventura was more reliable than the Nova in 1972, we're talking about TODAY.
-Mike
11-28-2008, 09:56 AM
#24
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This means my WS6 is going to be a GEM at 30k miles on the body!
Ill be at the funeral pissing on the grave of the Firehawk G8 V6.
Pontiac has got to do something with its performance line other then 4k pound cars.
Ill be at the funeral pissing on the grave of the Firehawk G8 V6.
Pontiac has got to do something with its performance line other then 4k pound cars.
11-28-2008, 10:00 AM
#25
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To be honest...I would rather my Pontiac's be badged at Holdens. Just sell 'em like you made 'em. It isnt like the Pontiac brand is a huge household name known for selling awesome cars...just read NineBall's post at the top of this page. So long as it is GM, it has my attention!
11-28-2008, 10:09 AM
#26
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To be honest...I would rather my Pontiac's be badged at Holdens. Just sell 'em like you made 'em. It isnt like the Pontiac brand is a huge household name known for selling awesome cars...just read NineBall's post at the top of this page. So long as it is GM, it has my attention!
Chad, quit trying to get Tony's Bud light.
11-28-2008, 11:01 AM
#29
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If General Motors fails it's because of their own mistakes.
Chevy/Cadillac. That's what it should and needs to be if they want to continue operating.
Chevy/Cadillac. That's what it should and needs to be if they want to continue operating.
11-28-2008, 11:03 AM
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I think they should also get rid of Buick.
Keep: Chevy (cars), GMC (trucks), Cadillac (luxury)
Pontiac has a poor reputation to most auto buyers, as they are reminded of the crapbox plastic-cladded junk they produced in the 80s and 90s. It is also a redundant brand, with most models shared by Chevrolet. Chevrolet has a better reputation overall.
Keep: Chevy (cars), GMC (trucks), Cadillac (luxury)
Pontiac has a poor reputation to most auto buyers, as they are reminded of the crapbox plastic-cladded junk they produced in the 80s and 90s. It is also a redundant brand, with most models shared by Chevrolet. Chevrolet has a better reputation overall.
11-28-2008, 11:18 AM
#32
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The G8 is actually sold in the mid-East as a Chevy...Lumina I believe. Crappy name to be associated with the G8 if you ask me..I like Chevy G8 better than Chevy Lumina...makes me think of Days of Thunder and ugly FWD crapboxes. 
11-28-2008, 11:28 AM
#34
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I agree selling off Saab and Saturn however, Pontiac needs to stay.
I went to a Saturn dealer ship today and it was a miserable sight. There were no potential customers looking around on the lot. Sadly, the vehicle service department was packed full of cars that needed some sort of of warranty work. Saturn = More expensive identical rebadge Chevys and Pontiacs that dont sell. Saturn was a 3 billion dollar mistake.
Saab has some very exciting and advanced technology that Cadillac and Buick could use. Ex. XWD and their turbo motors. Strip Saab and give to Buick and Caddy.
GM needs to turn Pontiac into a Scion division. Attract the youth with very modern designed vehicels thats very competitively priced. Pontiac needs to look like the Britany Spears. Sexy, young, cheap(affordable), and full of drama. It will sell. All GM has to do is put Pontiac through rehab and fix its reputation as a poor quality brand.
This is what GM NA should look like:
Chevy = Toyota, Nissan, Honda
Caddy = MB, BMW, Lexus, Infinite, Acura
Pontiac = Scion
GMC = ??? maybe commercial or trucks only
Hummer = Land Rover, Jeep low volume
Buick = China only!
I went to a Saturn dealer ship today and it was a miserable sight. There were no potential customers looking around on the lot. Sadly, the vehicle service department was packed full of cars that needed some sort of of warranty work. Saturn = More expensive identical rebadge Chevys and Pontiacs that dont sell. Saturn was a 3 billion dollar mistake.
Saab has some very exciting and advanced technology that Cadillac and Buick could use. Ex. XWD and their turbo motors. Strip Saab and give to Buick and Caddy.
GM needs to turn Pontiac into a Scion division. Attract the youth with very modern designed vehicels thats very competitively priced. Pontiac needs to look like the Britany Spears. Sexy, young, cheap(affordable), and full of drama. It will sell. All GM has to do is put Pontiac through rehab and fix its reputation as a poor quality brand.
This is what GM NA should look like:
Chevy = Toyota, Nissan, Honda
Caddy = MB, BMW, Lexus, Infinite, Acura
Pontiac = Scion
GMC = ??? maybe commercial or trucks only
Hummer = Land Rover, Jeep low volume
Buick = China only!
Last edited by texas94z; 11-28-2008 at 11:42 AM.
11-28-2008, 11:42 AM
#35
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Yes, but that's the problem. We're trying to compete in EVERY market and that's what's got us where we are. We need to choose the one with the most potential in the short run, for the time being, and shut down the other brands. We save money while making money at the same time. Then, when things are back to normal, we open Pontiac and Saab back up with new products that appeal to everyone.
It's not like we can't shut down Hummer and rebage them as Chevy either. That would be beneficial as well. There's absolutely no need for a company that sells ONE vehicle. That vehicle being a 8/14 mpg slug that retails for 40k+.
It's not like we can't shut down Hummer and rebage them as Chevy either. That would be beneficial as well. There's absolutely no need for a company that sells ONE vehicle. That vehicle being a 8/14 mpg slug that retails for 40k+.
11-28-2008, 11:56 AM
#37
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It would be sad personally for Satun to see go.
As I've owned 3 Saturns and put more than 100k miles each of those. Great vehicle and undeniable great reliability.
Oh well....
I've had more problems with my 2001 Cadillac then I EVER did with ANY of my 3 Saturns....strange.
As I've owned 3 Saturns and put more than 100k miles each of those. Great vehicle and undeniable great reliability.
Oh well....
I've had more problems with my 2001 Cadillac then I EVER did with ANY of my 3 Saturns....strange.
11-28-2008, 12:30 PM
#38
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It is not just the number of models Gm, Ford, Chrysler can cut the number of models and that would cut costs some, but that is not the main problem,
It is the uaw(union)-realize that if you are in the uaw and they have a layoff you go into a job bank and you have two choices. Move to another plant and continue working at the average wage plus benefits of $75.00/hr or say no I do not want to move and get 90% of your pay and benefits forever. Realize uaw members get full retirement and $10 dollar a month full medical the rest of their lives. They can retire after 30 years; meaning those who started at 18-25 retire full pay and benefits between 48-55.The big three have 3 times as many retired as working. All that adds huge labor costs. It is impossible to fire someone for absenteeism; poor work. Workers can only do specific job assignments. The union has made it impossible for the american cars to compete in this market. Every car rolling off the assembly line; when it is sold carries a $1500-$3000. Dollar loss to the company. .....and Pelosi, Reed, Franks,and Osama want to bail them out; they will be back in a few months asking for more.
Their business model is broken. They need to file chapter 11 and reorganize bust up the uaw contract and begin making cars at a competitive price so they can actually make money.
Average uaw worker makes between $!00k-$130k a year for inserting tab a into slot b. What a sweet deal, but all that contributes to making cars that do not compete on price or quality with the world market.
How many companies do you know you can go to work! Get laid off !Collect 90% pay and benefits for setting at home and playing video games. As a tax payer and someone who works hard to earn my money. I do not want to spread the wealth to those who do not earn it. File chapter 11-restructure and just get real. Or GM. Ford, and Chrysler will become part of our welfare and entitlements that everyone else has to pay for on top of the price of thier vehicles..
If we bail them out..... I am definately not buying any new cars from the big three.
It is the uaw(union)-realize that if you are in the uaw and they have a layoff you go into a job bank and you have two choices. Move to another plant and continue working at the average wage plus benefits of $75.00/hr or say no I do not want to move and get 90% of your pay and benefits forever. Realize uaw members get full retirement and $10 dollar a month full medical the rest of their lives. They can retire after 30 years; meaning those who started at 18-25 retire full pay and benefits between 48-55.The big three have 3 times as many retired as working. All that adds huge labor costs. It is impossible to fire someone for absenteeism; poor work. Workers can only do specific job assignments. The union has made it impossible for the american cars to compete in this market. Every car rolling off the assembly line; when it is sold carries a $1500-$3000. Dollar loss to the company. .....and Pelosi, Reed, Franks,and Osama want to bail them out; they will be back in a few months asking for more.
Their business model is broken. They need to file chapter 11 and reorganize bust up the uaw contract and begin making cars at a competitive price so they can actually make money.
Average uaw worker makes between $!00k-$130k a year for inserting tab a into slot b. What a sweet deal, but all that contributes to making cars that do not compete on price or quality with the world market.
How many companies do you know you can go to work! Get laid off !Collect 90% pay and benefits for setting at home and playing video games. As a tax payer and someone who works hard to earn my money. I do not want to spread the wealth to those who do not earn it. File chapter 11-restructure and just get real. Or GM. Ford, and Chrysler will become part of our welfare and entitlements that everyone else has to pay for on top of the price of thier vehicles..
If we bail them out..... I am definately not buying any new cars from the big three.
11-28-2008, 10:49 PM
#39
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scary ****, but i do agree with much of the notion that there is too much redundancy in GM's brands.
i'd rather see buick go bye bye and i feel that saturn is replacing what olds and buick were combined. as far as the trucks go... i'd rather either see them all badged as chevy or GMC, but not both... thre just isnt enough difference between the two to warranty dupes of each truck.
ford seems to follow suit with the 'luxury trim' levels with ford/mercury/lincoln, kinda like scion/toyota/lexus. but with GM, it seems to be more about the 'attitude' of each brand. although i've never really been 100% sure what attitude is trying to be conveyed for each brand.
i'd rather see buick go bye bye and i feel that saturn is replacing what olds and buick were combined. as far as the trucks go... i'd rather either see them all badged as chevy or GMC, but not both... thre just isnt enough difference between the two to warranty dupes of each truck.
ford seems to follow suit with the 'luxury trim' levels with ford/mercury/lincoln, kinda like scion/toyota/lexus. but with GM, it seems to be more about the 'attitude' of each brand. although i've never really been 100% sure what attitude is trying to be conveyed for each brand.
11-28-2008, 11:11 PM
#40
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Gm, Ford, Chrysler can cut the number of models and that would cut costs some, but that is not the main problem,
It is the uaw(union)-realize that if you are in the uaw and they have a layoff you go into a job bank and you have two choices. Move to another plant and continue working at the average wage plus benefits of $75.00/hr or say no I do not want to move and get 90% of your pay and benefits forever. Realize uaw members get full retirement and $10 dollar a month full medical the rest of their lives. They can retire after 30 years; meaning those who started at 18-25 retire full pay and benefits between 48-55.The big three have 3 times as many retired as working. All that adds huge labor costs. It is impossible to fire someone for absenteeism; poor work. Workers can only do specific job assignments. The union has made it impossible for the american cars to compete in this market. Every car rolling off the assembly line; when it is sold carries a $1500-$3000. Dollar loss to the company. .....and Pelosi, Reed, Franks,and Osama want to bail them out; they will be back in a few months asking for more.
Their business model is broken. They need to file chapter 11 and reorganize bust up the uaw contract and begin making cars at a competitive price so they can actually make money.
Average uaw worker makes between $!00k-$130k a year for inserting tab a into slot b. What a sweet deal, but all that contributes to making cars that do not compete on price or quality with the world market.
How many companies do you know you can go to work! Get laid off !Collect 90% pay and benefits for setting at home and playing video games. As a tax payer and someone who works hard to earn my money. I do not want to spread the wealth to those who do not earn it. File chapter 11-restructure and just get real. Or GM. Ford, and Chrysler will become part of our welfare and entitlements that everyone else has to pay for on top of the price of thier vehicles..
If we bail them out..... I am definately not buying any new cars from the big three.
It is the uaw(union)-realize that if you are in the uaw and they have a layoff you go into a job bank and you have two choices. Move to another plant and continue working at the average wage plus benefits of $75.00/hr or say no I do not want to move and get 90% of your pay and benefits forever. Realize uaw members get full retirement and $10 dollar a month full medical the rest of their lives. They can retire after 30 years; meaning those who started at 18-25 retire full pay and benefits between 48-55.The big three have 3 times as many retired as working. All that adds huge labor costs. It is impossible to fire someone for absenteeism; poor work. Workers can only do specific job assignments. The union has made it impossible for the american cars to compete in this market. Every car rolling off the assembly line; when it is sold carries a $1500-$3000. Dollar loss to the company. .....and Pelosi, Reed, Franks,and Osama want to bail them out; they will be back in a few months asking for more.
Their business model is broken. They need to file chapter 11 and reorganize bust up the uaw contract and begin making cars at a competitive price so they can actually make money.
Average uaw worker makes between $!00k-$130k a year for inserting tab a into slot b. What a sweet deal, but all that contributes to making cars that do not compete on price or quality with the world market.
How many companies do you know you can go to work! Get laid off !Collect 90% pay and benefits for setting at home and playing video games. As a tax payer and someone who works hard to earn my money. I do not want to spread the wealth to those who do not earn it. File chapter 11-restructure and just get real. Or GM. Ford, and Chrysler will become part of our welfare and entitlements that everyone else has to pay for on top of the price of thier vehicles..
If we bail them out..... I am definately not buying any new cars from the big three.
Case in point, who made the first plug in hybrid, time is almost up, give up - GM. And where are all of those hybrids today? Plug in hybrids by the way, they have been crushed. Why, becasue CEO Wagner said "too expensive" and "consumers do not want hybrid cars". Guess someone forgot to tell Toyota that huh...
So here they are, years later, scratching their heads wondering why consumers aren't buying the suv's with the hefty margins that boosted profits. The house of cards fell, they chose not to see the writting on the wall, and will still tell you with a straight face "that consumers want suv's" After all, they are the smarest guys in the room.
I am a hard core corporate america vet with many years in leading postions - and I can say this with 100% confidence - these executives have huge ego's and feel they are always right. They do not see the need to sit down with consumers to understand what their problems are and work with engineers to design a solution.
Don't believe me, go check youtube and listen to the big three's ceo's respond to the "who flew in on the corporate jet" question.
They don't get it, they think they are the smartest guys in the room, and have no clue what the needs of the customer are, which is another big reason why they are in the trouble they are in today.