00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

That's an awesome price for a quality amp, I though PPI went to **** but you obviously know what you're talking about so I'm already liking it. But being that it can drive all 4 channels with that much power, would you still do a bias to the front? Or hammer all 4?

Yeah i've never spent so much time fine tuning a system in my life, this one has been very challenging. This is my 7th or 8th setup in this truck. Currently I have a decent Pioneer head unit, but obviously not great since it's only a 2v pre out (avh-x1600dvd). I have a Digital Designs M1c for the subs. The subs are okay, db drive K5's in 1.25 cubes each chamber sealed. I went that route because I had sundown SA8s in a 1.5 cube ported box tuned to 35hz and it did good but it didn't do good with rock, just rap and bass music. I think the spiders and surrounds were a little too stiff for quick bass, that's another reason I like the k5s, they hold decent power but have light duty cones and spiders etc. I was going to buy 2 Fi SSD's with the high Q option after the sundowns but things came up.

Would you power the door speakers off the radio or the bose amp if those were your only two options?

Things have been pretty rough for the past year or so for the wife and I or I would have bought an amp for the front stage a while back. I'll keep that PPI in mind for sure

As for the infinity front door speakers, no they are not components, the wife bought them for me for fathers day and so that's what I have. ONE THING though, I have the factory tweeters in the a pillars, what would you do there? I disconnected them because there are so many tweeters in the truck now and the tuning being hard makes it almost impossible to keep the hiss at bay. But when they were disconnected I really missed the filling sound that came from them being up high. So now they are reconnected and further making the tuning challenging. And then theres the +3db switch on the new Infinity speakers. Another headache/variable to tune around.


I appreciate all the help btw.


And sorry for the thread jack Charlie, if it bothers you I will switch to PM with Jmil.

Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

Don't worry about posting in here, I don't mind at all, plus I can learn some new stuff as well. I'm leaning very heavily towards what Jmil has recommended (bridging the front 2 speakers and letting the head unit power the 2 rears as fillers.

Jmil, to answer your question, my son never listens to blue tooth thru my stereo, he either listens to the sound out of the tablet or thru head phones. It will be me alone in the car about 80% of the time. Also, check your PM's.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

I'm thinking about it too.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

PPI ain't the high end it used to be but the tech has gotten so good and with chip prices coming down, I just get extra power and it seems to come out sounding pretty good. I used to be a class A/B snob but the tech has improved so much, I'm looking at class D because it's so much easier on the electrical system.

I like the looks of that Pioneer you have, poot. I am running a DEH-PRS80 now and still tweaking it. I wouldn't sweat 2v preouts, so long as you level match carefully should be no big deal. Higher volt preouts can make a difference if you're really going all out but with a well thought out system, you'd have to go A vs B vs A to hear a difference. There is some benefit in noise resistance but I wouldn't worry about it too much if you're not having problems.

Poot, I'd go powered off the Pioneer radio over the Blose amp, personally. But you may consider just replacing drivers and keeping all else the same including the Blose, sometimes you can get really nice results that way for not a lot of coin. Double check size/fitment but here are some ideas for your doors:

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...eeter--275-030

http://www.parts-express.com/goldwoo...4-ohm--290-308

I don't remember where the crossover happens in your OEM setup. Got a diagram?

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

I like my head unit but I am concerned that some of the audio quality gear in it may be sub par, being that the radio looks so nice and is so low cost at the same time. Surely they used the low end of components to make it meet that price point. Maybe.


Thanks for that bit of advice, no I don't have any noise issues, just challenging to match the gains but I've got a pretty good hold on that. I had to turn the gain all the way up on the sub amp to get it to semi match the bose amp's gain. It's working out well though, but I have to use loudness to help make up the gap in gain.

Dude those drivers you posted look nice and that's a damn good price too.

I think I have too many tweeters and that may be part of my tuning problem, to get it to where I don't have too much midrange sound I have to bump up the high end like the 2.5k and 10k but then it's hissy. I have 4x6's with tweeters in the rear, 6.5's with tweeters in the front, and then the factory tweeters in the A pillars. What's your opinion on that?

When you said diagram for the crossover, you mean wiring diagram? If so here is one. I tried to get them off of Prodemand but it looks like they are protected.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

Poot: Loudness sounds great at low volumes but really causes problems as you crank it up. It tends to add boost in the wrong areas for mids. It is, after all, just distortion in certain frequencies. If you haven't already, try playing with a signal generator. I've often found hiss that I thought was in the tweeter range was actually from the midrange drivers. Rear fill is a taste thing, I generally don't prefer it or lower the volume on it where it is just fill. My general preference for front stage is a dedicated mid and a dedicated tweet. I have added ambient tweets to "lift" the soundstage if I couldn't aim the core mids and tweets like I wanted, but that's a band aid. I do have dedicated mids only in the door and tweets in the a-pillar. Sounds pretty good in the V but it's not as tall as your truck. May be worth experimenting, unplug your a pillars and see if you like it. The neatest installs I've seen in your body style truck were dedicated mids in the factory door hole and a hole saw just above it creating a perfect hole for an aftermarket tweeter, all fitting behind the factory grille. You could do something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CDT-Audio-CL...IAAOSwNSxVSSkl to keep it simple or like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/CL-6E42-CDT-...dTKNPS&vxp=mtr and still keep everything behind factory grilles. Either of those would need an amp but would be fairly stealth and sound VERY good.

Yeah, that diagram is what I was wanting. You could try the PE parts I suggested and see how they run off the Bose, it may surprise you. I would disconnect the rear twiddler no matter what, especially if your rear doors have coaxials in there.

Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

Jmilz, just a little update on the Focals and dynamat in the front doors. After listening to multiple songs the last 2 days, the Focals are much clearer than the Pioneers I had in there. The dynamat also made a huge improvement in rattle coming from the door panels. I just ordered another kit to do the rear doors as well. Like I said in PM, you can tell the Focals are asking for more juice and are not playing up to their potential. So far I'm satisfied with the upgrade, but I think once we hook up the amp and tweak it, I will really be content.

And another thing, I didn't remember the condition of the stock wiring from when I first installed the new Pioneers and head unit about 2 years ago, it is very thin and in decent condition at best. I'm sure that's another issue affecting the sound quality of the Focals.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

Yes, you will want new wires and more power for your Focals to get their potential. If I had gotten to you before you bought those focals, I'd have steered you this way: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DLS-Performa...sAAOSw9uFW8tEJ

The deadening will help a number of things, as will making the door/panel as sealed as you can, except for the drain holes. The more air leaks in the door panel (speaker mounting surface), the more your driver has to work and both impact and SQ suffer. You can do a whole lot of improving with install and tuning. You can take the deadening really far, as far as you want, and it usually takes a while to get to the point of diminishing returns because the car cabin is a terrible audio environment.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Again thank you for all the advice, I understand all you said about the frequency etc and that is very helpful. You think it would be better for sound to put a component set with the tweeter in the door, and NOT put the tweeter up in the pillar? Just making sure because I always imagined putting a component set in at some point and using the factory location for the tweeter. Edit: I just did some looking around on CDT's website and that question was answered. They have some great tips on there.


F'ing drool that 3 component set looks amazing. Never even heard of CDT man, and I thought I knew some brands.

Never thought to check parts express for things like this, could assemble my own bad *** components for a lot less it looks like. https://www.parts-express.com/lanzar...aker--292-2598
https://www.parts-express.com/lanzar...aker--292-2596

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

I at one point spent a good deal of cash on DLS 3 ways with the dome mid ranges in custom kicks. I was running all that on a/d/s/ amps active...been chasing that sound ever since. A dedicated midrange REALLY brings out vocals without needing a lot of EQ. Those PPI amps have enough xover to run most anything active and was the cheapest ones I found with a good enough xover section to do it. Once you have the active set up, then you can swap out different drivers until you find the ones you like. That CDT set is actually quite a good deal for a solid 3 way setup. Yeah, the CDT web site has some good info and I have had good experiences with all of their stuff. In fact, I am running some CDT classic mids in my V right now. If you want some serious midbass, it may take some work but...feast your eyes: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/anarchy-woofer.html
I have a pair of these in my Suburban now in an active 3 way front stage. They're in the factory hole making my front windows not roll all the way down but SO worth it. You could make this the basis of a nice 2 way set up for now and make it a dedicated mid in a 3 way later. You'll want a good 100w for it but man, does it produce.
I hear you on the a-pillar tweet. I have those in my V too and I go back and forth on them. Best thing I can tell you is to get your amp and components, install, listen. Then move your tweeter and see if you like it. That big distance b/t woof and tweet makes time alignment more important so you may want a deck that does separate TA. That's why I have used Eclipse decks until my Pioneer DEH PRS80 now, keeps it flexible for the active setups I like. It's really fun because you can swap different midbass, midrange, and tweets for not a lot of cash once you have your deck, wiring, and amps set up.

My old Burb is kinda complicated but fun whereas my V is more basic, I went the easy route on it for money and especially TIME reasons. The V has 5 new drivers and the factory tweets running off a single PPI amp and I am happy for what I do with it. It will hit the low notes and sound good but looks totally stock. It will shake the mirror but not blur your vision. The Bose HU and amp really limits bass but I didn't want to put a new HU in it or get one of the nice signal processors as that would double the money in the rest of the system combined.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Yeah I can hear the TA issue when the pillar tweeters are connected, it's annoying but I love the fill it gives so it's a double edge sword.

Holy **** that little speaker looks like a beast man! I need to hear this suburban, I'm massively interested in the 3 way setup now. Sucks that my wife spent money on the infinity speakers.

Earlier, did you recommend snipping the tweeters on my rear speakers since I have 3 sets of tweeters? I could do that and disconnect the pillar tweets if you think its helpful.


Can you expand on this statement a little, i'm not familiar with the terminology

And do you know of a mid priced 2 din that would have those capabilities, like the time alignment? I'm really not in love with my current deck, no immediate plans to change it, I don't hate it, but plenty open to something better.


LOL I hear you on the V, an appropriate deck for that car would be a car payment or two.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

I used to buy a/d/s/ amps (brand) before Directed bought them. This was the transition from US/Jap/Kor made to cheap Chinese junk. At that time, a/d/s/ nipped at McIntosh in terms of quality. Active means running only the frequency range to the driver you intend it to spit out, as opposed to sending full range and letting a passive xover do the work or running straight coax/full range. You can run active from a head unit or send full range to an amp and let the xover in the amp do it, or both. Some HUs can run 4 way active, hi, midrange, midbass, subbass. Many can run 3 way active, hi, mid, sub. I run the latter and let my amp split the hi into hi and midrange. Lots of ways to skin it...but be warned: once you go active and get it right, it's hard to go back. LOL Kinda like going cam and headers and then having to go back to stock...but cheaper.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Okay I gotcha. Well I need to try something like that because I can tell something is off and it's making me want to burn it all!!!

LOL, it's actually decent now, and most would probably think it's fine, but it's not 100%

Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

***Update***

System is completely done and sounds really good. I was using an old 10 inch Kicker Comp entry level sub and it was only 4 ohms, my amp will push 300 watts rms @ 4 ohms and 500 watts rms @ 2 ohms, so obviously I wanted to upgrade the sub. I choose an Alpine Type S 12 inch, (500 watt rms @ 2 ohm) below is my current issue with the sub. I'm almost at the point of just buying a different 12 and calling it a day. Thanks in advance for any help

I have a 5 channel Kenwood amp pushing four 5x7's and one 12 inch Alpine Type S in a vented box. I originally had an entry level Kicker 10 inch woofer and it sounded pretty good. I obviously wanted to upgrade since the 10 inch was 4ohm and only getting 300 watts rms from the amp. The Alpine 12 is 2 ohm and is getting 500 watts rms from the amp. I had the gain set to halfway and the bass boost a little bit lower than that on the amp. Well when I switched out the sub for the new Alpine, I listened to it for about 10-15 minutes before I started noticing a really strong electronic burning smell coming from the sub box. I did some research and was told the gain was set too high, how I have no idea since the 300 watt 10 inch was just fine with no problems what so ever.

Well anyway, now I have the gain set at 25% and turned the bass boost down some. Since I have done that the smell has almost completely gone away, but of course the sub isn't hitting anywhere near as hard as the 10 when the volume is at the same level. It will hit at higher volume levels, but if I play for any extended period of time, you can start to smell that burning smell again. Has anyone experienced anything like this before, particularly with Alpine subs?

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

You did do a good thing moving from a 10 to a 12, that alone will give more output. Now, the real issue. Never use bass boost especially on the amp, it's a bandaid for a...sub-optimal setup. I hardly, if ever, use the EQ at all on my sub stage, it adds distortion and that is bad. That said, a ported box and it's peaky nature, using the parametric EQ to smooth it out can make sense but I strongly prefer sealed box setups. Also, don't use gain as a volume ****, it's not. It's for level matching the voltage of the signal input. If your deck has 2v preouts, you set the gain to roughly the 2v spot on the gain dial. You get the idea. Between your gain settings, boost/EQ settings, and running the sub channel at 2ohms, you're stressing the amp. That's why the burning smell. You need to back it down and correct it as outlined above , tune it correctly, and find more output another way if you're not satisfied. What are your crossover settings? That could be contributing too.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Kinda sounds like you went into the amp tuning blind, no offense. No need to match any bass boost or use it. Like JMIL said that's all a band aid for a bad setup.

Research your head unit and see what the pre amp voltage output is rated at. Lower end units typically have 2 volt (I have a nice pioneer but it's still only a 2v preout), higher end typically 4 volt. The higher the volt the lower you turn the gain. The gain all the way down would be for roughly a 4-5 volt preout, all the way up would be for around a one volt preout.

JMIL can expand on this but I would start with these amp settings after you figure out your preout voltage. If your amp doesn't have numbers on the gain **** then turn it no more than 1/4 up for a 4 volt preout and no more than 3/4 for a 2 volt. These are just starting points..

Set your lpf frequency to 80hz
Set your sub sonic to approx 30hz (if you have a sub sonic filter) If you know the frequency that the box was tuned for you can set the **** to that frequency and go from there
Turn off bass boost

You can start there and make adjustments.

I have burned up those type s subs with 300 watts before, they are by far not my favorite sub. I have had a lot of subs and lately I have had JL subs, alpine, Sundown SA series, and DB drive. I am currently using 2 db drive 12's and i've been impressed. I have burned up 2 but i'm pushing over 1k to each one and I have them in a sealed box. I have db drive K5 subs and you can get them for around the same price as the alpine and they hold a lot more power. They aren't quite competition level speakers like my Sundown subs were (heavy cones and spiders) so they seem to be much more musical. For what they cost (db drive k5) they are hard to beat. My next subs will be Fi SSD high Q option.


Edit: 2 more things.

This is a good write up but I still don't like the bass boost part, unless you really need it to get the sound you want and that leads to my next thing.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-LuocyYq...s/tuning.html\


I prefer sealed boxes, they are much smaller and have a broader range of frequency. My last ported box was tuned to 35hz and all it would do well was very very low bass (rap and bass music), my sealed setup does everything good (country rock rap bass music etc). Ported boxes are tuned around a peak frequency and tend to be peaky because of that. Off the shelf ported boxes are setup at a generic frequency and may not be best for your sub, each sub has varying qualities and the ported box should be built specifically for it for optimal sound, and it can be tailored to your preferences. Sealed boxes simplify all this, has for me at least. I have two 12's in sealed boxes in my truck and people have literally asked on many occasions if I have 4 15's. But my sealed boxes are spec'd to the exact air space spec for my subs.

Get a good sub and make sure the box is built for it, most of your off the shelf boxes are not sized well. Every off the shelf box made for my truck is too small and makes the bass punchy. My system is WAY louder than ever before with the right size box.

Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

Thank you guys for the info. My Kenwood deck is 2.5 volts. My crossover on the sub is set at 80hz. Like I said, after turning the gain to 1/4, I haven't smelled that burning smell nearly like I first did. I have only smelled it once, and that was after listening to it loud for a good amount of time. You 2 are not the first people who have said to not use the bass boost on the amp. My question is, why do manufactures put it there? And second, if I turn it all the way down, then there is hardly any bass output on the sub. Not saying I want full blown out bass all the time, but it is nice to have it when I want it. Thanks again

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Let me put it this way, you won't find bass boost on many high end amps. Marketing gimmicky stuff. It does have a function and it does work but shouldn't be necessary. If you like it use it, but if you can avoid it, avoid it.

I used to smell my coils all the time when I had ported boxes, but I was putting over 1k to each sub too. Try turning it up again, it may have been a little stiff from needing to break in, may get louder now without smelling.