Most the good mechanics I know around here make $50K plus a year.

 

That's why I don't turn wrenches anymore...

 

The box that was sitting next to mine on the truck was some limited edition box. It was identical except for color and for the "limited edition badge" on the box. I'm sure if money is an issue you can find a box that will suit your needs. I found what I was looking for at the price I wanted. I just miseed getting a second identical box for $400 used at the pawn shop recently. As for somone paying the $7500. Many folks don't always know that Snap on has other divisions and that he tools are identical except for the name stamped on them... If they did, they might buy them..

As for sound financial planning. That why I shop for a lot of tools at pawn shops and flea markets. I know lots of mechanics who will be in hock up to their eyeballs on tools and boxes and unload it for pennies on the dollar.

My point is that if you own and use a professional quality box you can tell the difference. There is a difference. It may not be a big deal for the average user, but load a drawer up with tools and the drawer falls out of it track, or won't open, thats a problem. It may not be a big issue if the box is flimsy and dents easily till something hits you box and you can't open it.

Like I said, flimsy boxes may be ok for some folks depending on use and need. But for other folks it isn't...

 

You sound like me...I always shopped around.

$2200 on a brand new Mac MB1800, listed for ~$3500 but apparently no one liked green...great steal. I still have it even though it clashes with my blue car.

 

Thats why the powder coat shop can be your best friend. You can take a box and fix that ugly color for about $100.

 

Not a bad idea at all. Thanks.

 

Nobody can argue that the premium boxes are overpriced, but they are head and shoulders above the others in quality. I bought the Maximizer bottom box over 10 years ago when I pulled wrenches for CAT for about $4500. It still looks and works like new. I spent about $700-$800 more for it than a Matco box that was comparable. But like I told the Matco dealer, I just like the Mac box better.
Its in my garage now and it looks a little out of place, and it is a bitch to move. I have thought about selling it and a lot of my tools then refitting with a Craftsman professional setup then pocket the rest of the money, but I can't bring myself to do it. It is just so much nicer to have the quality.

It's tough to justify to a lot of people, even other professional mechanics, but that is kind've why we each have our own jobs..so we can spend OUR money on what we feel is valuable. But I'll side with the guys that think it's worth it.

 

[QUOTE=J-Rod]As for me, I own a Bluepoint box. Bluepoint is a division of Snap-On. My box was $1200 retail. They gave me $100 off for trading in my old Craftsman box. An equivilant Snap-On box was $7500. I can swap the label and the drawer trim, and it is a Snap-On box. It was built in the same factory, etc...

For the best deal in tool boxes, I would recommend going to Lowe's. Get the big 42" top and bottom box. Lowe's tool are made by J.H. Williams. J.H. Williams is the industrial line of Snap-On. So, your Lowe's tools, and boxes are made by Snap-On in many cases. The Big 42" box is made in the same Snap-On factory that the other Snap-On boxes are made in. It's blue, but for $1100 for the top and bottom box, it beats the $8000 or more for the same box from Snap-On.
[QUOTE]

Guy I work with has a KRL 1003 the top of the line 3 bank box snap on sells and it was less then $8000. Blue point makes nothing in comparison to KRA or KRL snap on boxs buddy. I'm not a fan of Snappy boxs (I'm a Matco box snap on tools kinda guy).

KRL 1003 is 76" long bud, and about as deep as your box is wide. You would have to swap all the drawers in your blue point to even get it close to a snap on KRA box.

Far as the guy who said a mechanic making 30k a year, I was making that as an apprentice at one point and thats damn near the poverty line. Even if you booked garentee everyday for 365days you would make over 40 grand but they would fire your ***. Average Technician pay is 50-75k before uncle sam gets paid.

 

Maybe back in 1960 you were paid that, if flat rate killed you, your not good. If you know your **** you can be fast and meticulas.

Our top guy makes 110k a year, hes used car tech and does inspections/repairs on 5-6 cars a day and books 20+ hours a day.

 

Regarding boxes:


http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/toolboxes.html


Tool Boxes

©By: Keith Bucher

Originally written: 29 Mar 2001
Last update: June 30, 2001 - formated for SOL's Morgan web page

I received the following email in response to the article Who makes what tools?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello John,

I was searching on the internet yesterday and I was delighted to come across your article: Who Makes What Tools. This is the type of information I have been looking for and trying to discover for myself for several years now. I'd like to expand on what you said a bit, and ask you some questions.

First of all, in my search for an approximately 26 to 30 inch wide roller cabinet and top chest a year ago I spent several hours trying to determine just who made whose tool boxes, and exactly how many tool box manufacturers there are in the United States anyway?

Here are some of the things I discovered. Snap-On seems to make their own tool boxes in their plant in Algona, Iowa. Mac claimed that they have a plant in Ohio who makes theirs.

The Husky tool boxes sold at Home Depot are made by Stanley in Canada. I even called them, but didn't really get much information.

Now here's where things really get interesting. When looking at tool boxes at Lowes, I found that they definitely had two very different grades of tool boxes. At the bottom of the scale were their professional tool towers, which are made by Waterloo. But higher on the ladder were their 28 inch wide roller cabinet, which is the one I purchased, the 28"inch wide Roller Cabinet Model 7704 at $448.00

Its companion is: 28" Top Chest Model 7609 $348.00

I thought, "Damn, these tool box drawers pull out as smooth as a Snap-On, and the paint is every bit as smooth. And besides, the description mentions durable powder coated paint and rolled drawer edges. And sure enough, just as with the Kobalt tools, this set of tool boxes are indeed made by Snap-On, as is a wider 40 inch model. I talked to an Ingineer at the Snap-On tool box manufacturing facility in Algona, Iowa who verified this.

Of course these Kobalt tool boxes aren't as heavily made as the actual Snap-On brand, but they're not nearly as expensive either. I found them to be vastly superior to competitors in their price range such as Craftsman and Husky from Home Depot.

I have owned a Kennedy top chest and it was also of fine quality. I'd like to know of other tool box manufacturers in the United States. But as with tools, it's probably a safe bet that there probably aren't all that many.

Recently I have been attempting to assemble data on torque wrenches, and as with tools and tool boxes, I have found it sometimes difficult to determine who makes whose.

I'd be interested in any information you have concerning torque wrenches.

And last of all, I'd like to ask you what e-mail lists and newsgroups discuss tool topics such as these. And once again I want to thank you for your article. It was most intriguing, interesting, and helpful to me.


(ED: Yes Keith there is, it is called "Shop Talk". You can subscribe to it by sending email to:

majordomo@autox.tean.net

The body should contain:

subscribe shop-talk
end

You will receive a confirmation email. Simply follow the directions contained in it.)
Sincerely,

Keith Bucher



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Return to the Index of Tech. articles

 

http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/whotools.html

Who Makes What Tools

Last update: Feb. 10, 2003



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following excerpts were posted on one of the mailing list I subscribe to. I though the information was worth sharing.

I've tried to contact the original authors to get their permission, but did not get any replies to my emails. Since this information is available via one of several archives, I feel that I can present it here. However, the authors names have been removed from the discussions. (If they would like credit - please contact me.)

(ED. I was informed on July 5, 2000 that Stanley has a complaint filed against them via the Federal Trade Commission as of June 2, 1999.)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Someone wrote [in part]:

... but I never could figure out who makes the [Craftsman] hand tools.
To which someone else replied:

I'm not the final word on tools by any means, but since I work in the business, I've learned a little bit about it. Okay, here's more than you ever wanted to know.

Lowes now (as of earlier this year) is selling a line of Mechanics Tools called Kobalt which is made by Snap-On. They are good tools.

(ED: I've received 3 follow up emails; updating the information about who is making Kobalt tools:
The first is from Bob Payne of Cornwell Tool Distributor - He indicates that Kobalt is not made by Snap-On.
The second is from Heidi Schuck of Husky Tools with more information on Kobalt tools not being made by Snap-On.)
The third from Dave Johnson about the new vendor for the Kobalt line of tools.)

Home Depot's Husky brand is made by Stanley Mechanics Tools, a division of the Stanley Works. Husky are also good tools and have a good lifetime warranty (they'll even replace your broken Craftsman with an equivalent Husky).

Until 1994 or so, Stanley also made Sears Craftsman tools. Sears Craftsman is now made by Danaher Tools. They beat out Stanley on the contract over price. Danaher also manufactures MatCo Tools, the third largest player in the Mobile Automotive industry (behind MAC and Snap-On). Odds are, if you own any Craftsman tools that are older than about five years ago, they were made by Stanley in plants in Dallas, Texas, Witchita Falls, Texas, and Sabina, Ohio.

Stanley also owns MAC Tools and manufactures MAC tools in the same plants. Now here's the kicker: MAC Tools, Proto Tools (a very expensive industrial brand), Husky Tools, and, (prior to five or so years ago) Craftsman Tools are all made from the same forgings in the same plants. Proto is unique because it goes through addtional testing and certification because it is used by NASA, the military, and industrial customers (including General Motors).

There are three MAJOR players in the USA mechanics tool business: Stanley, Danaher, and Snap-On. Stanley and Danaher (almost identical in sales revenue at about $28 billion each) are the biggest followed by Snap-On. Each of these three manufacture and sell tools under a variety of brands (there are many other brands that Stanley makes that I haven't even named). The quality between these three manufacturers is roughly the same. I know its a bit of a let-down to hear that, but its a simple fact.

There are a hand full of other minor players (Vermont American, etc) and an endless list of Taiwanese import tool companies (some of which Stanley own as well as Danaher to serve the lower end consumer import brands at WalMart, etc). How do I know all of this? I work for Stanley Mechanics Tools, specifically with the Proto Industrial brand. I personally do not think that MAC, MatCo, or Snap-On branded tools are worth the extra markup since they use the same forgings and manufacturing processes that make Husky and Kobalt and pre-1994 Craftsman. Where you need to pay attention are things like ratchets and torque wrenches. There are different specifications of ratchets and you do pay for the difference. Some mechanics require a finer, more precise ratcheting mechanism than guys like me who just bang around in the garage on the weekends.

By the way, Metwrench is basically considered a "gimick" infomercial tool brand that is not considered as a serious competitor to Danaher, Snap-On, or Stanley. Then again, IBM once didn't see Microsoft as a serious force in the personal computer business. Hmmmm....

(Two more brands that I don't know much about is Black & Decker and DeWalt. About Sept. 2002 I received an email stating that B&D owns DeWalt. Though I haven't confirmed this yet.)

----------------

Then there was this discourse on FACOM brand tools:

> FACOM has been around forever. French company, says "American" in the name
> though I forget the whole acronym.

FACOM is Franco-Americaine de Construction d'Outillage Mecanique. French for "French-American Mechanical Tool Manufacturing". Got points in my french class for that.

> It's now one of the largest tool conglomerates in Europe.
>
> SK, I think, is an American company that recently has had a large part of
> its stock purchased by FACOM.

FACOM owns S-K outright. You'll notice (if you look through the catalogs from preceeding years) that the tools are becoming more and more alike. The S-K "pro" screwdrivers are now FACOM ergotwist screwdrivers. The "tuff1" ratchets are S-K pro ratchet handles avec FACOM innards. FACOM's ratcheting flare wrench now has S-K stamped on the side of it. I don't like it because we could get FACOM tools from S-K dealers for over 10 years, but now they're getting more and more reluctant to give us FACOM stuff, they'd rather sell S-K stuff. Which is why you get S-K catalogs instead of FACOM. If you specifically request (demand) a FACOM catalog, you get their _american_ catalog, which is abbreviated, along with a note to contact Griot's Garage. I've asked a French friend to get me a French market FACOM catalog, as they have all the good stuff that hasn't yet been absorbed into the S-K line. Ultimate Garage is a FACOM dealer as well as Griots, and I've been told (by richard?) they've got a catalog, dunno if it's FACOM's, but I'll order something and find out.

I was also wondering what the deal was with the S-K foundry? Presumably they still make some stuff stateside? No? I know there are others not mentioned, Cornwell has a foundry in Ohio, I think?

I'd kinda doubt that Williams uses the _exact_ same dies for Koalt and Snap-On. I compared the Kobalt combo wrench to one of my Snap-Ons, and they aren't the same. The Kobalt handle is pretty much rectangular in cross-section, and really does hurt your hand when you pull hard. The Snap-On is more rounded. As well, the Kobalt is visibly looser on the fastener. Maybe these are Snap-On rejects? Can't explain the handle differences, though. The breaker bars seem to share the same grip, though, it just seems the kobalt doesn't have those nifty machined indentations at the base.

I know Stanley owns Mac and Blackhawk (didn't know about Husky), but the Blackhawk stuff doesn't seem similar to the Mac stuff. These look awfully different to be from the same dies, shape wise. So the price difference is different steel in the better tools? Surely they can't be charging Mac prices for better plated Blackhawk stuff?

> FACOM also owns (large parts of) USAG (Italian?) and Beissbarth...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Addendum

I received the following info from Dan Peronto a Tool Designer for Snap-on Tools at the Kenosha Mfg Plant:

From: "Peronto, Daniel J."
To: "John T. Blair"
Subject: Hand tools
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:44:50 -0500


I just wanted to add my 2 cents. Well a nickle really, considering that I work for Snap-on and we over charge for everything

I was reading on your site about 'who makes what tools' http://www.team.net/www/morgan/tech/whotools.html. One part explians that the various manufactures use 'the exact same forgings' for all the various brands they sell. This is NOT true for Snap-on tools. Our retail brand Kobalt sold through Lowe's stores, shares very little if any traits with our traditional Snap-on line. They are made in the same plants, but most of the manufacturing tooling is different. They are made by the same UNION skilled machinists useing the same tried and true processes. The designs for these tools are completly different. They use different material and are heat treated differently.

I hope this clears things up slightly
Dan Peronto
Tool Designer
Snap-on Tools
Kenosha Mfg Plant

 

To clarify, they paid me $13/hr...( chevy dealer ), that top guy I mentioned was at $15/hr, on average 40 hours per week...52 weeks per year = 27,040. Of course there were some big weeks, but that wasn't always the case. What scared me was the guy next to me was at $14/hr and he was there for 15 years!!! Obviously not much room to grow. No one in the shop was banking 20hrs/day. I gave it up almost 10 years ago and back then I didn't know anyone making more than $50k.

If I was still doin it, and making $110k/yr I guess $6k-$10k for a box isn't that much outta pocket.

As for not being good...I've forgotten more than you'll ever know...

 

Blue Point boxes don't compare 100% to Snap On boxes. They are still better than Craftsman, etc, but Blue Point is Snap On's "Value" series.... many of the Blue Point tools are generic or Chinese tools that are marked up 50-300% or more.

Yes Kobalt tools are made by the same manufacturer as Snap On, but they are NOT the quality of Snap On tools. Mac is a Stanely brand, and Craftsman and Matco tools are also made in the same plant, and again no comparison. Don't forget, Corvette's and Cavaliers are both made by Chevrolet, and they're both GM cars. That doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that they are the same vehicle.

 

I have been using Snap-on tools and tool boxes for over 10 years now in the Air Force. I recently got a different job in the AF, and I am also now recently in charge of all the tools in our building. Snap-on tool boxes are junk, I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. I can't stand them. The boxes we have at work right now suck. The locks practically have to be jimmied to even get them open. I have found a loophole in the system, and will be buying nothing but Craftsman stuff for work when I can with the Gov't credit card.

 

Why dont' you consider Matco 5S tool storage? Matco tool boxs are the best in the industry. Unlike snappys they have evolved. The only tool box I would consider purchasing is another Matco.
here is a pic of mine, this week I added a locker more pics up soon.
http://community.webshots.com/user/fraser350

 

$13-15 an hour that was the going rate back in the late 80s but booking over 100 hours a week was common back then, i've only seen it happen once or twice in the last two years. Used car techs will always book big hours though. If the car needs brakes for example they just do them, every car they look at needs work.

Technicians are paid $26 an hour now and that rate is only going to go up.

Not many techs make over 100k, maybe like 5% of all. Most thoes guys have been repairing vehicles 25+ years + continually educating themselfs. Its not something your automatically given, something earned.

 

No doubt Matco makes nice boxes.

As for the commnets about Bluepoint, if you go get a Snap On box that is in the same line as mine, the only diff is the trim color on the drawers, and the label. Otherwise it is IDENTICAL. See the above thread I posted about the Kobalt tools, etc...

On the tool side. Its like anything else. In many cases the stuff is identical in some cases it is not. Look at a lot of the air tools. The Bluepoint stuff is IDENTICAL to the Snap-On stuff in most of the cases I have seen. I'm not saying it always is. Like anything else it pays to compare.

Again, I buy most of my tools second hand @ Cole's flea market in Pearland, and out of about 10 pawn shops in the Houston area. We take the Harbor Freight catalog, the Snap-On price sheet, and a few other reference guides and will pay no more than 50% of new price for anything. If you don't mind going on a regular basis, you can find just about anything you will ever need in brand new never used shape for the price of much lower quality tools...

 

Snap on kinda sucks when it comes to air tools, My IM 31 3/8s impact is a serious weak POS that I paid $300 for.

They said Kobalt and blue point tools are made to different tolerances and quality control then Snap Ons. Kobalt tools don't look anything special to me, they didn't look like flank drive to me.

Alot of Snap on air tools are rebadged IR air tools so for the last few years i've only purchased IR air tools from online stores. They sell em cheaper then the tool truck can sell them to me for.

Just purchased a Snap On Micro VAT last week, that thing kicks ***. Saved my *** on a job too, showed bad alternator even though shops VAT 40 showed a good load test.

 

For 6000 bucks you could buy 9 costco boxes and have some change left over. When one wears out you can sell it and use another one. I would love to have a nice Box like that but I would rather spend the money on tools instead.

I think I may look into selling tools for Matco, Mac or Snapon. Looks like some good GP on those sales.

Brad

 

What I said was, people making the hand tools in China earn .02 cents an hour and that if the same tools were made in the US the manufacturor would have to pay these workers at least $12 - 15 an hour....

It is a no-brainer that the tools from China will be less expensive. The real question is whether the US tools are better and justify their relative high price.

From the discussion above about MAC, Snap-On, Craftsmen, Stanley and others, it seems the steel these tools are made from is similar given that the manufacteror for most of these brands is the same. The finer point is obviously the fit and finish. From my experience, Snap-on tools fit great; they fit into tight spaces and their polished finish and chrome plating are without equal.

It is really a question of weather you are willing to pay $450 for a Snap-On wrench set or $29 for a similar set made in China.

What salary has been earned by mechanics 20 years ago has no relavence in comparing values between US and Chinese made hand tools in today's marketplace. Tools are made by factory workers not mechanics.