Firebrian

When I was actively collecting 1960's Mopar Muscle I had collector car insurance on them. Only ran about $100/yr per each $10,000 in value....3,000 miles per year limit which is easy for most people. That was cheap and must have imo.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree. Collecting cars for the purpose, even secondary, of investment is already a risky commitment, and leaving them uninsured greatly increases risk unnecessarily. Agreed value collector policies are usually very affordable, and well worth it especially for anyone who truly expects significant appreciation of their special interest vehicles.

OKSS

I don't expect "significant" appreciation, but I do expect to make a bit of money. Since the cars are not driven farther than 10ft out of my shop and back in 2 or 3 times a year, there isn't a big risk involved. The only risk is really the weather and there is a VERY slim chance that it will impact my shop in such a way it would cause destruction to vehicles. The amount of money I expect to make would be offset by insurance costs if I insured the cars for 10-15 years therefore making it contrary to my goal.

GimmeLSx

iTrader: (4)

I'm curious as to what the electric car market is going to do to the value of these cars in the next 10 to 15 years. My opinion is that there is going to be a major depreciation in value as we become more electrified. Every auto manufacturer is going electric; some completely electric within the next 10 years or less. Then you look at how close we are to self-driving cars. We are on the cusp of a major technological shift that is going to fundamentally alter the world as we have known it. I can easily see a great majority of gasoline powered cars off the road in the next 15 years and their values taking a major plunge.

OKSS

Agreed. Although I think there is a possibility that as fewer gasoline cars are being produced prices may rise but I do tend to think the probability is stronger that the market will swing a bit downward once electric vehicles become the norm.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I thought you were keeping your fingers crossed for "skyrocketing" value?

Sounds like investment growth/positive return is actually a primary goal of yours then. Either way I'd want them insured for weather/fire/theft related loss so that I could replace them without having to do so out of pocket - that's assuming I have them just for the pleasure of it. If it's more about making a profit then I can understand minimizing costs, but owning cars for the purpose of future profit while also leaving them uninsured is a dual-risk scenario that's entirely unappealing to me. To each his own on that one.

Lots of big talk from some of these OEMs, IMO. When I think of some of the claims that were made 10-15 years ago, few of which have actually come to pass, I tend to take these sort of carefully worded industry projections with a grain of salt.

The average vehicle in the US is nearly 12 years old at this point. People are keeping cars for longer, not shorter, so that average age will likely not decrease in the near term. Having said that, even if they completely stopped building any gas/partial gas powered cars in exactly 10 years time (which is highly unlikely), it would still take many years before the majority of vehicles on the road were 100% electric, and then quite a while after that before gas powered cars were a "rare" thing to see during an average day on the road. Granted, some regions would see the effects of this shift sooner than others but, regarding the nation at large, gasoline isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

If there is still a hobbyist market for fuel for these old dinosaur cars, then it will likely be available to order for decades to come (sort of like currently getting a 55 gallon drum of race fuel delivered to your house when none is available in your region.)

OKSS

Indeed, but that doesn't mean I expect the "skyrocketing" value, but I do expect an appreciation.

GimmeLSx

iTrader: (4)

Here is something else to consider: kids born today will live in a world where they may never drive a gasoline powered car, never have to manually drive a car, or even own a car at all. 15 years is plenty of time for a major demographic shift to occur; how old will most of us enthusiasts and gear heads be then?

OKSS

Good lord you know how to put a damper on a discussion don't ya? That's really not something I want to think about.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Again, I have to disagree. 15 years isn't necessarily as long as it might seem (some of this might depend on your personal age as well.) And, in terms of lifestyle/landscape/technology integration, 15 years in rural/less populated areas doesn't quite carry the same impact as 15 years in major cities - so region plays a role here as well.

Average vehicle age continues to increase, and is currently at almost 12 years old. There is no reason to believe that this trend will reverse, so it's reasonable to project that the average vehicle on the road in ~12 years will be a 2018 model. Almost every car being sold today is gas or partial gas powered; very few are pure electric. In 15 years, the average car will be a 2021 model if this trend continues - and most of those will still be gas powered as well.

Also (and perhaps this will make OKSS feel a bit better ), we could look at this from a different angle: I can still walk into a chain auto parts store and buy drum brake wheel cylinders for my '71 Nova right off the shelf. That car is 47 years old now, and service parts are still available at chain stores like O'reilly and NAPA. And, for items not on the shelf, with a one or two day wait, I can order just about any mechanical item I could imagine for this car from most parts sources. This car is a dinosaur - completely outdated with a gasoline toilet bowl for fuel delivery - yet parts are still available and it, plus hundreds of others just like it, show up every summer weekend at our local cruise nights. That's still happening all over the country. In 15 years, I predict that this car will still be on the road, still with an internal combustion engine, and I truly believe that.

Firebrian

I remember reading in Mopars Collector Guide back in the 1996-2003 period that environmental rules were soon to be changing such that even getting decent premium gas for our muscle cars was going to be very difficult....and that tightening emissions requirements would take many of our cars off the road. MCG's Enviromasochism column consistently painted a rather bleak picture. Here we are 15-20 yrs later and little has changed...and many of the states don't even tail pipe these cars any more due to exemptions. One of the reasons I sold the last of my 60's muscle mopars was because of printed stuff like that. What was very ironic is that prices soared on those Mopars from 2004-2007 just before I exited, many doubling up in price....Doh!

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

There was much talk in the early '00s about such topics as oil supply depletion being right on the horizon, and gas prices permanently soaring out of reach for the average consumer; that even getting fuel would be tough in a decade or two. But, like you said, that was 15-20 years ago and gas is readily available today in three different octane ratings starting at $2.49/gallon in my region.

In the late '90s/early '00s, Illinois still required tail pipe testing on all vehicles of model year 1968 or newer which were not registered as antiques. Now, anything older than 1996 is totally exempt, regardless of registration type. This was a cost savings measure to allow the test centers to retire the older I/M 240 equipment in favor of OBD scan only testing for '96+ vehicles, and this occurred when statewide registration of 1995 and older vehicles dipped below 30%. So, rather than trying to outlaw older vehicles which were no longer cost-effective to test (as some sources have erroneously suggested would happen over the years), they just exempted them - basically a free pass for the hobbyists.

Another interesting thought: AutoZone, O'reilly, NAPA, Pep Boys and Walmart all carry H6024 7" round 2-system sealed beam headlights right on the shelf. Who even buys these? Most vehicles stopped using them by the early '80s, though a handful continued into the later '80s/early '90s (such as 944s and Miatas, perhaps a couple of others.) This is basically a totally obsolete part, rarely needed even by old car collectors since those cars see such limited usage (and some would rather pay $100+ for repro T3s/PowerBeams anyway), yet several retailers have them ready to sell like it's still 1985.

In some ways it surprises me how many parts are still available for cars that have been generally off the road for decades, kept alive only by the hobbyists.

OKSS

Utah does all that goofy testing too but when I moved, they were going to try to pass a law to do away with the safety checks, but keep the tail pipe and ODB testing. Just another way to make money.


Oklahoma does not have any kind of testing for any kind of vehicle, just pay your yearly tags and drive it.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This is how most of IL is, other than the ZIP codes in and around Chicago plus a few on the IL side of St. Louis. Even in the testing zones, we can get a show car/race car exemption if qualifications are met, or an automatic exemption for anything registered as an antique. I have the proper type of insurance to get a show car exemption for my '98, but haven't bothered to do so - just 3 more tests/5 more years till I move it to AV registration and then it'll be done with testing forever.

Jason E

I've been grateful to move from a state like MA (where they now have actual video cameras in inspection bays so RMV monitors can watch inspection techs do a full OBD II scan, safety check etc and can fail you for things like an exhaust louder than OEM, a lift kit 1" too high etc), to FL where so long as it has 4 wheels and headlights, a cop won't bother you. Even then, I think that might be a stretch.

With that said, I too wonder what the future of the hobby is with electrification, driverless cars, ride-sharing programs etc. I have a ton of money tied up in what's in my garage, and am concerned to buy anything more in the near term, until its clear that states will allow for both driver and driverless vehicles on the same road. I follow this stuff closely, especially since demoing the Cadillac CT6's new "Super Cruise" system, which while having limitations, works damn well. I have no desire to have some autobot roll me around...but I can see the appeal for others.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

What do they do about really old cars then? Stuff where factory exhaust systems are long since out of production and original noise levels were not so highly regulated anyway? Or are such vehicles just exempted?

Not much worry here in the near or mid term. Average US vehicle age means that we're always at least dozen years away from any new tech becoming a majority on the roads. Plus, I don't see how motorcycles could become self-driving in their current configuration, so the argument can/will be made that not all vehicles on the road are self driving anyway, so why shouldn't manual-drive cars still be allowed?

Safety (and emissions) features don't normally need to be retrofitted. My '71 has no shoulder belts, no air bags, no ABS or TC, no modern crumple zones or interior components designed to absorb impacts, etc. It's still perfectly legal to operate on US roads even though it's decades behind in safety tech, and came with zero factory emissions equipment other than an early EVAP system. No reason to believe this will change with the introduction of other new safety features.

I think these sort of concerns apply more at a state or local level in the mid-term (meaning places like CA, and perhaps some major cities, etc.) Any nationwide shift will take decades. I don't expect that I'll be here to see it, or perhaps be too old to care.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

The internal combustion engine is here to stay. Electric vehicles for the masses are still years & years off. Everything from range to charging stations to making money on them has not been figured out.

Cahill93Z28

what a car...I would guess $20K minimum

KyleF

Hahaha, Wrong.
Telsla is Revenue positive
Europe has outlawed the sales of new Petroleum cars by 2040
Volvo is going all electric.
Porsche and Ferrari are going Hybrid
All major manufacturers are investing greatly in electric technology.
Economies of scale will soon come into play driving cost down.
China has multiple all electric manufacturers.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

IC won't be disappearing from US roadways any time soon. Average US vehicle age is nearly 12 years old and growing, so even after the last IC vehicles are sold it will still be over a decade before they're gone. And new tech/infrastructure is slower to hit full stride in rural areas, so older gas vehicles/gas stations will probably be operated in those areas for even longer, plus whatever additional demand is driven by the old car enthusiast market (though fuel might eventually need to be ordered by the drum for this purpose, rather than readily available stations on every corner.)

Not worried about IC/gasoline disappearing in my (driving) lifetime, though I wouldn't go so far as to say that it never will. Perhaps some of the younger enthusiasts will see this happen. It will take many decades for IC to totally disappear, even if OEMs stopped building new ones in the next ~10-15 years.