Lots of dreamers out there for sure, this is a prime example:

The seller is either out of touch with market reality or simply doesn't want to sell this car. That price is from Mars IMO.

But it's not just the WS6 cars that get hit with comical prices (though it is more common with these). You'll even see this for a Z28 from time to time. Here is one:

https://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/c...548733618.html

This one has been posted several times by this seller in the last couple of years. Looks like he'll be keeping this car for many years to come.

Agreed. There are some folks who really want to see these cars become the next Super Duty Trans Ams, but I don't see this happening at any point. Wrong dynamics. There will always be a handful of buyers who are willing and able to pay big money (meaning well beyond what a given car would generally be worth) for something specific, but that's a very small group which amounts to far less buyers than the amount of overpriced examples on the market (which is why they just sit and sit).

 

It all comes down to rarity and collectability, Right now they aren't rare and not old enough to be considered a collector car. Look at the price of 1972 on up Camaro/Nova/Chevelle/Mustang/Monte/Cutlass/Grand Prix and so on. Over time they have become more and more scarce so the price started climbing but they still aren't collector cars really and it takes a spotless low mileage special edition to bring decent money compared to some of the earlier models.

 

For information's sake, I just bought a 2000 black WS6 MN6 from a board member for $17,000 before shipping. 32,000 miles. Car has original window sticker, documentation of oil changes all the way back to 2000 and is all OEM except for a lid. There are a few minor flaws, none significant except for some bubbling on the sail panel. Excellent paint and interior.

I expect it to be the first car I've bought that will appreciate in value over the time I own it.

 

Automobiles are getting better in their refinement and they are also getting much more sophisticated in their options and manufacturing. I do not think the 4th Gen F-body is a car that is going to stand the test of time like a 2006-2012 Z06 or a Mustang GT350R. They were very simple in their layout and easy to maintain but their braking, handling and performance is not exactly the same as the two cars I listed. I love them for what they are but you have to admit the next generation has other purchases on their minds and a late model muscle car is not one of them.

 

Then why are late 60s / early 70s muscle cars worth many multiples of what they sold for originally, even when factoring in inflation? They aren't the best cars available by any means, rather, they are valuable because of nostalgia, passion and a diminishing supply. All those factors will be in play for fourth gen f-bodies down the road.

I can't believe how raw (in a good way), my WS6 is compared to the many cars I've owned since the early 2000s. And for me, nothing really compares to the attitude of a black WS6 - that's why I bought it. I don't care if its not that fast anymore, I have a Porsche 911 Turbo that runs 10s off the show room floor.

Newer cars will always have better tech, safety and generally, performance, but that's not the only reason people buy cars.

 

Yes it will likely appreciate in value but in most cases you are still loosing money in the long run. If you add the cost of insurance and inflation (Not counting buying plates every year) You are actually losing money faster than the car appreciates in value, Then add in the fact that if that same money were placed where it could make you money aka stocks/bonds and so on... you're losing a lot more than you know but you can't go out to the garage and admire your stock portfolio!


Most are not worth more when you figure in inflation and then you add in the cost to own/maintain them. Yes there are some cars that if you had a crystal ball you could order now that will be worth a lot in the future. Had people known that a Hemi Cuda convertible would be worth a small fortune anyone that could afford one would have bought one...but of course then they wouldn't have ended up being so rare.
That's another thing that people overlook, Rare old and valuable are 3 different things, Just because something is old does not make it valuable and just because it's a rare 1 of 1 car doesn't mean it's valuable. Maybe it's 1 of 1 because it's an ugly color that nobody else wanted. Me and my brother picked up a 70 Chevelle that had every option available except SS trim, It was ordered as a sleeper with a 454 M22 4-speed and the list went on.... Still didn't carry the same value as an SS car with the same options even though it was rarer than the SS. Why....because everyone wants a Big Block SS car.

Most people that make money on collector cares aren't the collectors, It's the people who deal in rare cars. Quite often they already have a buyer and search out cars for them and make a good living doing it. Most people also don't realize that many of those $100,000 cars you see selling at Barret Jackson cost someone $150,000 to have someone build it for them.

 

The typical #2/#3 condition "muscle car" from that era isn't worth many multiples more than its original MSRP once you factor inflation. Using something like my '71 Nova as an example, it was about $2500 new, give or take a couple hundred depending on specific options. That works out to be about $16k in current dollars (using this calculator: https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm ). Novas comparable to mine usually sell for about $20-25k in the current market, so that's only about a ~40-50% appreciation in actual value after 47 years (not factoring any costs of ownership). Gains would be higher for a comparable 1st gen Camaro but, still, not many multiples of original MSRP unless it's something extremely special. Obviously there have been some exponential gains for the very special and/or ultra low mileage/assembly line original examples of the most desirable models (especially if #1 condition - which usually requires an expensive and extensive nut-and-bolt restoration), but those are not the average "muscle car".

$17k for a 32k mile '00 black WS6 M6 is pretty much top dollar in the current market, lots of sellers might ask more but they don't seem to be moving at prices much higher than this with similar specs. I wouldn't expect any big gains in the foreseeable future. This will never be the next Hemi Cuda or even SD-455 Trans Am. The dynamics are entirely different; the 4th gen WS6 package was scarcely more than cosmetics, so the fact that a base Trans Am/Formula of the same year is effectually equal in terms of stock performance does put something of a lid on WS6 status (thus value - today and in the future), not to mention the fact that 10s of thousands of LS1 WS6 cars were built (with black being the most common color). Additionally, newer cars have continued to get faster (no watershed moment of performance collapse for a decade or more, such as what occurred in the mid-'70s), which makes 4th gens more of a footnote than a legend.

I agree completely about the appeal of 4th gens, and I still own one (and would/will buy more) for the same reason(s). But the vast majority of these are not likely to realize massive appreciation beyond inflation, and certainly not beyond more traditional forms of investment - especially once you also consider the cost of ownership (maintenance, insurance, any storage costs, etc.) over the long term. These cars are great as toys or transportation, but I'd park my money elsewhere if you're looking for a growth investment.

On another note, the complexity of the newer generation of vehicles might be their undoing as they age. While some of them are amazing performance machines, keeping them serviced and on the road when they are several decades old might be a tall order, as compared to their lower tech older counterparts, considering their many solid state gadgets/electronics and the rapid obsolescence which is typical of such.

 

And that exactly was my justification. $17k of stocks and bonds won't provide nearly the same level of enjoyment as American iron in my garage. I never suggested investing in a fourth gen f-body was a better investment than the market for capital appreciation.

A black WS6 isn't "rare" I agree. But IMO it is the best embodiment of the general of muscle cars I grew up with, and there's a bunch of other guys like me, as proven by this board, for whom these cars will always hold a special place, and thus, help the car keep some value over time, and most likely appreciate as the supply of nice examples dwindles.

 

No offense, but a '71 Nova was never an especially cool car, that's why it hasn't appreciated as much. A '69 Camaro 396 or Z28 or a 1970 Chevelle SS would be a better barometer for a WS6 IMO, and those have appreciated much more - especially for low mileage, documented, and clean all original examples, which I what I bought.

Agree that a 4th-gen f-body isn't an outstanding investment, lol. All I said was that I expect it to be the first car worth more when I sell (if I ever do) than when I bought it.

 

NOVA's have a pretty large following from the muscle car crowd just like pretty much every other model specific platform. This being said a 71 Nova is a base model car, the one's that you are suggesting are more rare of a piece. You basically hand selected (3) of the top model cars from that era that do fetch money because their exclusivity and substantial different. When you look at a big block SS Camaro and see what you get over a base model 1969 Camaro then compare the production numbers and what is left in the market today I think it would be easy to see why they fetch good money. Now to RPMs point the WS6 is basically a minor appearance package to pretty much the same car I don't think this qualifies as being similar. I would accustom the WS6 to be more like the RS package that was available on the 60's Camaro's. Whilst RS cars will usually fetch more than a base model camaro they are not in the same realm as a big block SS of the best production years.

Now on to the more relevant discussion to what I think your trying to get across yes I think that at least the WS6 (i.e. I clarify this because I feel like the base models as well as non-specialty SS still seem to be adjusting downward) has reached the bottom of it's depreciation (i.e. this meaning for good examples not high mileage beat cars). Do I think it will appreciate I think that is to be seen but I personally don't see them going any lower. I think you will always find a buyer for a nice WS6 in the low to mid $10k's but do I think in the near future you are going to have guys jumping to pay $20+ personally I just don't believe that to be so.

I will reiterate what I always say is today's generations that are interested have less and less brand and model loyalty. The generations that are flooding the market with money today are truthfully just looking for the best performance car for the $$ and when you have other models slowly depreciating this limits the growth of the WS6. Do I think 10 years from now you might see a low mileage WS6 sell for MSRP yeah for sure but in reality those a just random noise in the overall statistics because that is a small sample of the population.

Not to financially profile but based on your collection of car's it sounds like if you paid a thousand or two over market for a WS6 it isn't a huge deal. This being said $17K for a '00 I would say is above standard market value but in the end it doesn't matter as you will have sales on both the high and low of the average and as long as your happy that is all that matters. As a point of reference though $17K is achievable to get what would be considered more rare options such as CETA, SOM, and I have actually seen SOM Firehawks sell in that price range.

In generally I will say that after watching late model muscle for years one thing I will say is that the market seems to swing togehter in which as the more desirable models shift up/down the middle and lower models do as well. What I mean by this is the 2000's muscle is generally driven as such C6Z=GT500s>Terminator>C5Z>G8 GXP>Holdens (LS2GTO/G8)>WS6>SS>LS1 GTO>Base Model LS1>LT1SS>LT1, when the prices go up they all kind of shift accordingly and same when they go down. This kind of reiterates my statement above about the generation of buyers today. What I have been interested in seeing is how the "newer" class of muscle impacts this. The last few years I had seen a slight downtick in value of all the aforementioned which I assumed was because things like '10 and newer R/Ts, GTs, 1SS/2SS were dropping well into the low $20's and high $10's but recently most of the late 90's early '00s have taken sort of an up swing this including the LT1SS cars (i.e. base models LS1 and LT1 don't seem to have fit this mold). Anywhot I can't wait to see how it plays out either way. Me personally though I struggle with thinking I can buy a 14 1LE for mid $20's no way I am buying anything from the previous decade for anything even close to that.

As a side note I noticed your sig and all the cool "newer" muscle you have had (i.e. this is me assuming the coyote and challengers you were referring to were newer generation). If you don't mind my asking what made you turn to a WS6 and I will leave it very open ended as I know the styling is great but some of the newer muscle they have put out since '10 has been pretty hard to compare against for the 4th gens.

 

I didn't buy the WS6 for performance, numbers-wise. As you note, a bunch of cars will out perform it. Yes, my 5.0 was a 2012, my Scat Pack Shaker was a '15, etc.

I bought for nostalgia, the styling and the attitude. I had a '99 and '02 Z28 back in the day, those were the first performance cars I could buy and afford. You could say that I grew up with them... I know how to work on them and have a lot of experience driving them. The smell of the interior takes me back, the notchy MN6 takes me back... etc.

The styling and attitude... there are just few cars that say IDAF like a black WS6. Sometimes I just feel like shooting a big middle finger to the world and this is the car to do it. That being said, I'll only drive this car sparingly. I've got an older BMW M3 to daily drive and a Porsche 911 Turbo when I want to haul ***. But neither has a foot clutch or V8. The WS6 fills that void... and did it on the cheap while still being a really nice example. With the bonus that if I ever sell it, it will likely go for more than I bought it (assuming this to be 10+ years down the road).

 

A 2014 or 2015 1LE will destroy our cars, whether it be on a long cruise, a road course or the drags. It is a superior car, from the suspension, tires, brakes, engine, transmission to even working on it. I think you would have a hard time finding one for mid 20's unless it is miled out.

And I agree with you, if I can buy a 1LE or a low mileage WS6 I know which car I want to be in.

 

Bandits96ss already covered this above, but your LS1 WS6 is not comparable to a '69 Z28 or BBC SS Camaro, nor a top tier '70 Chevelle SS. These cars had special engines and other factors that do not translate, as your WS6 is mechanically the same as every other LS1 F-body from 1998 through 2002. Even the cosmetic package is not rare, with 10s of thousands of WS6 cars being built during that period and, unlike the cars you've quoted above, no changes in body style for a 5 model year period.

Also, a typical 1970 Chevelle SS would have stickered for about $3500, again give or take a couple hundred for specific options. That's about $23k in today's money. An original, low mileage, unrestored '70 Chevelle SS which doesn't have some super special options (such as an LS6) wouldn't be worth more than about ~$40k in #2 condition (which is the best condition that your 32k mile WS6 could possibly be in, as it is well beyond delivery mileage, hasn't been stored in a bubble, and hasn't received a complete restoration). That's still less than double the original MSRP (adjusted for inflation), so still not many multiples of original value.

Again, it's only the really special stuff from that era which sees those astronomical gains, and most of those cars had a fortune spent on them to be returned to such condition (and value). There are probably only a handful of true #1 condition *original, unrestored* examples of such cars in the world. A 32k mile '00 WS6 will never be comparable to such.

 

Well, my bad for presenting some actual sales data on a recent buy, and offering up my premise that my 2000 Trans Am WS6 will be the first car I sell for more than I bought it to this thread. And FTR, I'd been following the market for over 6 months and I'm aware of 2 other sales that would indicate I didn't buy at the top of the market, but whatever.

FYI, there were more 1970 Chevelle SS (~53,000) and 1969 Camaro SS (~36,000) built than ALL fourth-gen WS6 combined (~29,000), so the WS6 is actually much more rare than many popular muscle cars, and a quick look at prices will show that WS6 sell for a significant premium over standard Trans Ams. So regardless of how you choose to differentiate on exclusivity, the fact is WS6 had much lower production figures than some of the more popular and desirable muscle cars, and is worth much more than the "base" models. What will its value be in the future? Who knows, but simple supply and demand and nostalgia suggest it will appreciate in value.

Utlimately IDGAF, I bought it because I think its cool and reminds me of some good times from years ago. I know its not fast, I've had more than one 10 second car. I know its not a better investment than the stock market. I know its never going to be as valuable as many other cars. And I never suggested any of that.

 

Right, but you did say this:

...which is not really true as a whole at all. It's only the very special examples which fall into this category, not the average "muscle car" of that era.

Regional pricing can certainly vary, perhaps they are higher in your area.

But there were not 53,000 '70 LS6 Chevelles (these are the ones bringing BIG money, e.g. "many multiples" of original inflation adjusted MSRP, not a simple L34 SS car). Those production stats include many examples of lesser desirability and value. You can't group them all together because original engine differences can mean a significant range in value even for comparable condition (same being true for Camaro).

On the other hand, 10s of thousands of LS1 WS6 cars were all built with the same engines and transmissions as every other V8 F-body of the same year range. They are not mechanically OR cosmetically rare within their platform, therefore simply not comparable to the most premium optioned muscle cars of the late '60s and very early '70s - they are much more like the "average" muscle car of that era, with a common engine and lots of examples originally built.

Again, this is only true if you fail to break down the stats to the most desirable engines and such. For example, if 53,000 (or even ~30,000 - comparable to LS1 WS6 production) LS6 Chevelles had been built in 1970, you likely wouldn't have ever seen an original one reach the 6-figure mark even during B-J madness. They would all likely still be selling for less than double their original inflation-adjusted MSRP (if even that), just like the basic L34 cars typically do in #2/#3 (which would be best case for the majority of non-bubbled, non-rotisserie restored cars) condition.

 

The original thread asked if WS6 Trans Ams were appreciating in value. I offered some real world sales data and the fact I think my car will appreciate in value over time. Then I offered an imprecise observation on the value of muscle cars.

I think what makes the WS6 valuable is its hood and the badge. You are focusing only on drive train and strike me as the guy who always has to be right and have the last word. You can have the latter.

 

2002 Firebird production
30,690 Firebirds were built
20,769 had the LS1 Gen III V8 Engine (67.7%)

of those 20,769 LS1 cars
14,908 had the WS6 Ram Air Package (48.6%)
1,500 had the WU6 Firehawk Package (4.9%)

In the other years FireHawk production is even lower.

Very likely ​​​​way too many WS6 cars, nearly 3x the base model TA in 2002, for the WS6 to appreciate like an early muscle car. Easy to copy the core WS6 look with an aftermarket or OEM WS6 hood. The OEM can be fairly expensive. However, the far better looking FireHawk is entirely another story with its genuinely low numbers. My friend's FireHawk always put the WS6 cars in the shade at car shows. Got more attention and more awards. Base model TA's like mine "disappeared" in plain sight. It's much harder to copy the FireHawk look.

The CETA WS6 and the 99 30th anniversary WS6 probably have good potential to appreciate due to low numbers etc. The WS6 definitely has far more potential to increase in valve than a standard WS9 Trans Am.

 

The highest order of old muscle cars, those which have appreciated by many multiples of original inflation-adjusted MSRP, didn't reach their current status and value simply based on a hood and badge alone (nor did they have such high production quantity relative to their lower level counterparts).

But we can simply agree to disagree on the observations and comparisons.

 

I don't think anyone said your car isn't going to increase in value but only time will tell how much that will be. Like I said in my earlier post a car can be rare / old / valuable but they don't always go hand in hand. You can always have another gas crisis like in the 70's (People didn't want muscle cars) or worst case scenario would be that gas cars fazed out in 20-30 years, When that happens you can bet the government is going to make gas expensive as a deterrent and only the very truly rare cars will hold their value.
You just can't predict what will be valuable in the future when it comes to everyday vehicles.
Times change and so does what people want.

 

Some real comedy here with folks comparing a 1970 Chevelle SS LS6 to a 4th gen WS6 when it comes to future value and collectibility. It is an apples to oranges comparison based on wishful thinking.

Back in 2007/2008 when gas prices were high and the recession started, these cars lost a lot of value. It is just as likely that they will lose value again when the next recession rolls around, which is going to happen sooner or later, just as they always do.

Then you've got a market that is about to make a dramatic technological shift with electric and self-driving vehicles hitting the streets. Couple that with changing demographics and consumer habits and we end up in a place that is vastly different from what we know today. Think about it: a child born today may never ride in a gas powered car in his lifetime, or even have to manually drive a vehicle.