Right now it seems like lots of people are dumping their LS1 engines for iron blocks or gen 4 aluminum blocks....which is understandable performance-wise.

But will there come a day in the distant future where the 4th gen f-body's will more desirable if they have their original LS1? Especially since it IS the original LS engine.

My main experience is 60's muscle cars where they are almost always more desirable with the original engine (especially if it's the top-of-the-line engine from that year).

 

Considering some of the asking prices I've seen lately, its already happening. Including 28K for a great condition, single owner WS6 6spd, and 50K for a 5K mile firehawk, and 15K for a rattle canned flat black T/A ( I think it was supercharged). I hope they get these prices too, because that means our cars are going up in value way beyond my wildest dreams.

 

It could happen. I feel it will be a long time but the market will give what people are willing to pay but the issue is as time goes on less and less people will like these cars or even know what they were.

 

I guess I'm really asking if the cars will be more valuable with there original LS1 in the future?

 

"All original" is always a selling point for a car model that owners frequently tend to modify. I expect that to be increasingly true of 4th gens with time as it is for the musclecars of yore.

 

The thing about old muscle is that the "top of the line" engines were relatively rare compared to the whole of production. Only a small fraction of small and mid-sized cars from the mid-'60s to the early '70s received these special engines, and even fewer were preserved because not many folks were thinking of future value at the time. Additionally, performance went dead for over a decade immediately after the original muscle car era hit its peak, so these cars became legends in their own time. On the other hand, LS1-era F-bodies exist in a different set of circumstances, most notably:

- There was only one "high performance" engine offered for any given year (and the same engine was used for many years in a row), and it was the same engine for all trim levels and all makes/models of F-body.

- A very large percentage of the whole was built with this top-of-the-line engine.

- Performance/performance cars didn't die off immediately after the 4th gen F-body ended production, and offerings since that time have only gotten faster and with even more exclusive engine offerings at the top end.

LS1 F-bodies will never be the next Hemi Cuda or LS6 Chevelle, the dynamics just aren't there. They will be more of a footnote than a legend in terms of late model performance car history. With that said, I'm sure they will continue to have a niche following and the nicest, rarest and most original examples will always be in highest demand to collectors within said niche.

There will always be dreamers. I see some crazy asking prices too, and I've seen some of those same ads posted and reposted by the same owners for YEARS....literally years. Some folks either have their head in the clouds or just don't really want to sell their car unless they can turn it into a winning lotto ticket. I wouldn't use the sky high fringe of asking prices as a judge of value nor what one should actually expect when attempting to sell their own car.

In terms of actual confirmed sale prices, the highest I've seen in the last couple of years was a 430 mile '99 Firehawk that sold at auction for $30k.

 

Thanks for the great insight RPM WS6!
I think you are mostly right about the future impact of having the original LS1 in an F Body.
I believe one factor that might help its value, is the fact that it is the first of a new generation of (highly successful) GM engine.

 

I'm also a big believer in original stock configurations. There are so few remaining already that the value almost has to rise. I know if I was looking for another, it would be one as close to factory as possible. The LS1 would be a must! I wouldn't even consider another engine in it. New wheels or needed items are not deal breakers but an engine would be. I know my tire shop has told me the next time I need tires, new rims will have to be in my future. As nice as my original 16" chrome rims look, the insides of the lip tend to leak when I get new tires. The shop smooths them out (grinder) but there is a point of no return. Only an ultra low mileage car would be free of this issue probably.
I also think another indication of a future price rise is the number of 'thumbs up' you get. It's really that simple. I get a lot of them which means people appreciate these cars as they age. IMO, these folks will pay decent money if they ever want one. Would I get the same 'thumbs up' in a modified version? Not sure.

 

I think this depends on the modifications in question. Cosmetic modifications, meaning major cosmetic stuff, tends to be more instantly polarizing than mechanical modifications. Most muscle/performance enthusiasts don't mind (or actually prefer) certain modifications that improve performance and/or sound (such as cam, exhaust, etc.), so you'd probably get even more positive attention from enthusiast spectators at large with a Trans Am that looks stock and perfect but sounds like a NASCAR. I think it is a smaller group of enthusiasts who like performance cars but prefer them to be 100% stock under the hood - BUT it is this smaller group who will pay the big money for collector grade stock examples.

I'm sort of an anomaly as I live on both ends of the spectrum; I can fully appreciate both and find both desirable for different reasons. Of my two current garage queens my '98 is almost entirely stock other than a few minor bolt-ons, but my '71 has some significant mechanical modifications. I love to see time capsule all-original cars, but then I can also really appreciate a car that is modified in certain ways (as long as it stays relatively true to its era) while still looking stock/mostly stock or at least era correct.

 

Hell, did that to a 56k mile car.

The motor cost twice what I paid for the car. Transmission, clutch, driveshaft and rear cost more than the car.

 

That day will most likely never come. As RPM mentioned the historical back ground is entirely different 1960's vs 1990's for performance cars.

Plus the 1960's muscle cars were widely loved and a very large market. This created big potential fan base. The 4th Gen's weren't popular in their time period with the general public. Resulting in a smaller potential fan base.

In ten to fifteen years with the electric car revolution gas powered cars will be luxury items like horses are today.

The typical LS1 engine will be lucky not to end up recycled into beer cans over next twenty years.

 

That is all certainly true, but there is another factor in play here. That for those who value these cars, finding a pure, umolested, "virginal" if you will, example in the future will command value. Yes, the base will be smaller. But for those who care about them, such cars will be very desirable.

An example, I had a BGRA kit that I was getting ready to install on my brother's WS6. At the last minute, with drill in my hand, he said, "No, let's not molest it. I want to keep it stock." A BGRA kit is a nice thing to have installed on a WS6. But in the future, a WS6 with all the factory rivets in the scoops will be more a more desirable car.

"I find this statement highly offensive and most reprehensible, sir" Doc Holliday

 

RevGTO, I have no intention to offend. Just stating my opinion on what will happen value wise. Most cars and engines don't survive intact for 40 years.

I apologize offending you. I stand by the statement in 20 years in 2041 LS1 engines and LS1 powered cars will be worthless or nearly worthless.

Same goes for the vast majority of muscle cars, Mustangs and Chargers etc. Sadly this will happen due to the move away from fossil fuels.

Certainly there will be a very small niche that value originality. I think they'll be able to find those cars a dime a dozen, twenty years from now as the market goes electric.

 

No offense taken - I was just joking ... offering a feigned "Doc Holliday" response. (I watched Tombstone too many times!)

 

Average vehicle age in the US is about 12 years old and growing, so even if electric suddenly became the overwhelming majority seller tomorrow it would still take about a dozen years before they would be in the majority on the road. Sure, some incentives might speed the process a bit, but the fact remains that electric is still a low volume seller at present. Maybe in 5-10 years they'll sell in big percentages, but then we're probably still looking at 10-12 years from that point before they are a majority on the road, and then quite a few more years before ICE becomes a truly rare sight. And all of this really still depends on whether or not there is a workable solution for the range issues and need for rapid charging, which are major hurdles for certain market segments. Things of this scale rarely happen as fast as the loony "visionaries" would have us believe.

Once ICE is no longer mainstream for general transportation, the value of certain enthusiast vehicles could potentially move upward. Just like today, subjective matters such as style and taste will continue to play a huge role in the used "toy" market, and there will undoubtedly be some folks with a personal preference for ICE toys no matter how fast the modern EV replacement looks to be on paper. With no new ICE cars being built, those interesting, desirable enthusiast examples (not the typical commuter car of course) that remain could demand quite a premium in certain circles. I definitely wouldn't count on ANY car as being a gold mine now or later, but I don't think they will *all* become completely valueless boat anchors (at least not until after the last generation of enthusiasts who grew up with ICE has died off, and that's going to take more than 20 years.)

As for gasoline itself, I don't see it disappearing any time soon. It may get harder to acquire, it may get taxed more heavily and, eventually, folks may even need to order it by the barrel (sort of like some do with race fuel today), but for those of us who are middle aged and older at present, I expect it will still be around for the remainder of our natural lives (although probably not legal for use or sale in CA.... ).

 

I am quite pleased to see these prices at the current Mecum auction in Florida. Very nice low mileage examples fetching WAY MORE than used car prices. I've listed 7 Firebird examples throughout the thread so far. We (Firebird owners) have hit the 'collectible' market after 20 years. Again I'm talking about really nice 1 or 2 owner stock low mileage examples. In the future this market might expand to higher mileage cars. The key word is might.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/pontiac-f...l#post20320657

 

I think you're right. A lot of people just plain like these cars and nice examples are hard to come by now. 5-6 years ago, my brother's pristine stock 42k 02 WS6 might have brought $15k on a good day. Today $20k is a minimum, and I could see it bringing a couple of thousand more easily.

 

There are three 2000-02 WS6s with 8-16k miles currently listed in my area for prices ranging between $24-26k - and they have been listed for a while. The 16k mile example is actually the nicest; 2002, one owner, appears completely stock from tail pipes to air lid, proper condition for the mileage top to bottom, no cracked door panels, etc. It's at a dealer but even they only want mid-$20s. I wouldn't have expected low 20s to be possible at 42k miles unless maybe we're talking about an SOM car, camel interior, maybe a CETA 'vert or 30th Anniversary car, something rare or special along long those lines. Perhaps not all regional markets have yet been impacted by the recent spike in 4th gen Firebird value.

 

Yup, fall of '17 I was shopping for an LS1 T/A, was just a bit too late for a Firehawk M6 with 99K for $10K, really had a great selection in the $7K-$14K range, and ended up buying a '98 auto that needed a little TLC (but ran and drove fine) with 135K for $3200. Spring of '19 I saw a single owner, pristine, 45K mile 6M black WS6 pop up at a dealer in PA for $13,500. Got the e-mail on a Monday, hesitated and called Wednesday morning, and it was already sold.

These days, I'd say what was selling for $7K - $14K in 2017 is now selling for $13K to $20K.

The other problem with values is that they depend so much on timing. I recently saw a dealer asking $50K for a 5K mile 6M black Firehawk. I passed on an identical one a year ago for $25K because I thought it was too much. But, if I won the powerball I'd be at the dealer tomorrow with $50K. The bottom line is that your car might be worth $20K to the right person today, but tomorrow that person may have bought something else.

 

I see a bunch advertised for $25k+ but I don't see many selling.