Ted J

iTrader: (4)

I did not say that they do not work, I said that they don't do anything for the amp. Talk has been said about people saying they can hear a difference and if memory serves me correctly he's put up a $5K challance to say people can't hear the difference and nobody's won it from my understaning.

RC use to have a big thread explaining the theory behind caps but I can't seem to find it. On carsound the RC Archive seems to not be up right now or maybe they took it down when they went to another server. I'll see what I can find and post the info up for you. I'm at work right now so please let it be known that my response won't be speedy.

EatRice

Oh I agree that a cap will not affect SQ but that does not mean you should not use one in your system. I am currently looking few old A2TB's I have here and seeing if I can find any on the web. Looking forward to reading what you find.

EatRice

This is a quote I have taken from an article about AlumaPro C.A.P. you can find it here http://www.carsound.com/reviews/in_c...pro_cap5.shtml
This is only a little info I have found so far. I have not had the time to look at any hard copy stuff.

"I could talk theory all you want. I could show you numbers that say things work, and I could show you the same numbers and show you how things will not work. But, at the end of the day, I know this: if I put something in a car and it works, it works. If it doesn’t, I take it out; while the AlumaPro C.A.P. 5 was 1-Farad under what I assumed I needed, I decided to try it anyway. The package took up less space than the previous 3-Farad set up, and has a built in terminal block, which allowed me to easily attach the power and ground connections. The C.A.P. also comes with a large connector relay that keeps the capacitor from draining the battery during non-usage periods and it was straightforward to install. At the end of the installation, I was going to test everything separate - with the C.A.P. sitting in the trunk - but its size and configurations made it so easy to drop into the tunnel. I had everything back together before I knew it.

So, what happened? It worked like a champ! I now have no issues with regard to cosmetics in the trunk, and the system maintains a perfect balance voltage-wise - no matter how hard I push it. I no longer experience the sonic annoyance of low voltage, and actually have no drain problem due to the C.A.P. That was the real benefit of the C.A.P., which I did not even realize at first — there’s no voltage drain when the system is off. It turned out that I had a problem with the original capacitors which taxed my Miata’s small battery. Now, with the C.A.P., I have no starting or voltage problems...it’s always good to have added benefits!"

Ted J

iTrader: (4)

I have edited my post above so please note that.

The thing is, some people will invest $300 to $500 for a cap and what does it gain for them? Why not buy a bigger amp or a better sub is what I'm saying. Not saying it's the right answer but just something to think about rather.

skytower31

iTrader: (4)

I got my cap fairly inexpensive and solely as cheap insurance in not frying my alternator. I didn't do it for any power increase or anything...simply for cheap insurance.

Cliff_J

Ted's being way too kind here, and reviews that help keep advertisment dollars in the coffers offers little to the argument. I was at IASCA Finals this past year, there were not these big caps in the ALL winning cars as is implied and there's a lot of dollars at stake so just because you see that XYZ company's sticker on Gordon's stock car doesn't mean he actually uses that product or believes it works.

In short, unless there is a specific problem to fix, why is the cap 'solution' being applied? It seems to follow the old adage "...if one is good, two is better..." without an examination of the system itself. 99% of the installations out there do not require the cap that is installed, its installed 'just in case'.

An extremely low ESR and ESL is absolutely needed to even be considered effective, and very few caps meet this criteria even today. Doo-dads like voltmeters on top of the cap can significantly add to the ESL - now that cap can't do much at all for quick energy bursts.

That the cap does not provide the over-inflated expectations set by marketing and misunderstandings within the car audio community. The largest misunderstanding stems from the perception of the cap's ability to provide 'large instant current' at high voltage in contrast to the actual capacity of cap to provide current and at what voltage it provides the current.

The size of amplifiers available today require much more capacitance than is practical or economical. It is a better value to simply purchase a larger amplifier that will make more power running off the battery than to try to 'prop up' a smaller amplifier with a stiffening capacitor to allow the smaller amplifier to make its full power potential. The battery will be the power solution of choice for large amounts of current unless capactitors with hundreds of farads of capacity can be utilized. In the end, a battery with a low ESR and an alternator with enough reserve capacity to keep that battery charged is the best solution available.

Cliff

EatRice

I agree partially with what you guys are saying except a point here and there. I personally have never used a cap as a "band aid" meanind to fix dimming lights or to get "more" power from an amp. I have and will continue to use, unless proven otherwise, caps to help add an amplifiers ability to make power. I have never installed a cap and had a negative affect. I know I do not know everything there is about electronics, physics, and audio as a whole but I have been doing this 15 years and experience has told me "use a cap it won't hurt". I do agree with not spending hundreds of dollars on one for an everyday driver type of system though as was said before. Now that was sort of personal stuff, the other thing I do not agree with is that marketing is what makes people buy caps and that is the only reason. If that were true then that would mean every single person working for every single manufacture of capacitors would be either a crook or a moron that knows nothing about the product they sell. I find that hard to believe. Ofcourse marketing has helped boost sales of caps but that does not mean they do not work. Marketing has boost sales of hundreds of thousands of products....does that mean those products don't work?
I respect what you guys are saying and am doing more research into the matter. It is obvious that you have a good grasp on the subject but no offense I would really like to see some published articles or tech briefs.
Thanks
Randy

Ted J

iTrader: (4)

Well, first off, how did the guys system above perform without a cap in that Miata? He is comparing using a 3F cap to the 5F cap but should he hear a big differene between the two or should he be comparing no cap to that of a 5F?

The $100 cap really isn't all that bad since it's not a lot of money but to budge $300 to $500 for something that may or may not work is just spending a lot of money without results that can heard. I do have a post that RC made referencing that, he didn't say if it was worth it or not but that to test it and listen if you can hear a difference or not:

http://www.carsound.com/UBB/ultimate...=021114#000002

Also, the myth of a cap maintaining voltage isn't true either for if there isn't a lose of voltage the cap isn't going to give out any current. In a test that RC did, and I wish I could find this, he used a GM 80 amp alternator and two 1000 watt RF amps and had I think a 15F cap on it. The difference in voltage before and after a cap was really hard to tell on the graph for again, it takes a voltage drop for the cap to release any current. Cliff may have links to this test and again, this was a 15F cap used on 2K watts, most people would only have used 2F there if they went by the standard.

No offense is taken here man, I mean, you are keeping your comments on a professional level so I'm cool with it. We all know that the internet is known as a place that people can show their a** so I don't mind at all if it's a back and forth conersation of figuring out what's going on.

I'll let Cliff respond to the marketing comments you've made for he can site examples of what he is talking about. Plus, it's late and I'm getting ready for bed soon here myself.

Ted

Ted J

iTrader: (4)

On a bigger scale than just caps, in some cases it's scary but yeah, marketing does seem to be biased in tryin to fool people.

The tornado air thingy you see in infamamercials (sp?) has dyno results to show in an Impala SS that it gives a 20 HP increase yet I watch on TV's Horsepower TV and when they do different mods to the car they don't just magically gain 20 HP by doing one thing as cheap as that tornado air thingy. Heck, they put an airfoil in the TB and didn't see much of a difference at all in the dyno curve also yet TPIS will tell you there is a difference. There is also the difference that will happen alone from the tolerance of the chassis dyno test that comes into play but on average there should be an increase that is scene.

Do those products maybe give an advantage, maybe, but they don't have my sold and they don't have my money. Just some thoughts that came to mind with it being midnight and all. Have a good one, off to try to get some sleep.

Ted

Cliff_J

People truly believe the caps work. They do work - that's not so hard to figure. But when they only really work a tiny amount, that's another matter all to itself. I'm sure that all but a handful of people at Enron truly believed they were providing excellent energy services and great investor value.

I dunno how much you'll find published anywhere - its not a popular opinion to reveal information that is not productive to sales. Chrysler and Ford quickly rushed to GM's defense when the '73-87 pickups came under attack for their gas tanks. Other tire companies do not capitalize on the misfortunes of Firestone's Exlorer and light truck tires.

Here's a simple challenge - if the cap is flowing the huge amounts of current, this is a very simple test. Charge the cap and unhook it. Now wire it back up with a fuse inline only on the cap, use a 10 amp. If its flowing 800 amps, should be easy to blow that fuse anyday.

Cliff

GuitsBoy

iTrader: (4)

This statement is not true. The current does not actually flow through the capacitor in a series. Think of a cap almost like a second battery wired in parallel. If you were have a dead second battery, you would still have the current from the first (charged) batter available to the amp. If the cap is dead, It wont keep the amp from powering on, you simply wont get the (questionable) benefits from the cap. If the cap is leaking of disfigured in any way, throw it out immediately. Most of the time, even with a direct short, the charge is disapated too quickly to cause any damage. If the cap could sustain that current level for a full second, then youd have some serious problems. I wouldnt worry about the cap unless you have any visable signs of damage. Its most likely the box thats hindering your subs performance.

-T

Cliff_J

EatRice - here's link to someone who put RC's explanation of his test of a 15F big cap into a PDF. Note the difference in average voltage with a 15F cap on a 2KW system, its .1V or less!

http://www.welcometotheden.8k.com/caraudio/Captest.pdf

Cliff_J

If you have a second dead battery wired in parallel without any form of isolation, you have an issue! The charged battery will discharge itself to charge the dead battery until they are at the same voltage (simple potential difference) and the large influx of current could create a hazardous situation!

Cliff

Koncrete

iTrader: (3)

you only have an issue is there is a short or one of the batteries is going out, at
the minimum you need a fuse on the power and grounds of both batteries to
stop this issue, now that being said I wouldnt run a second battery untill I
upgraded everything else in my elec system, alternator, every single ground and
power wire in my stereo, any connectors like distro blocks, and last the original
battery....only then would I look into a second battery, also if a second batt
was going into my system I would do it properly using smart relay to keep from
overcharging and such. this would mean more overall load also though for all
the regulatory equipment which means a bigger alt is now in order.....

really 2 batteries is a pain....as is 26 but this guy doesn't belive in caps at all
http://www.termpro.com/asp/competito...etitor_ID=3192
those are the same brand woofer as I use, although with a few upgrades

Ted J

iTrader: (4)

I have been thinking about a second battery so I could gain some more parking lot pimping time! Seriously though, it would be nice to have a nice amount of engine off system time and also not have to worry about the car not starting if you run the battery too low. If you get a true deep cycle battery then you could also run it down into some low voltages and not have to worry about it either.

Koncrete

iTrader: (3)

well just make sure and do it right from the get go, upgrade all you wires.
not including an speaker wires the smallest guage I have is 2, well I am lying
I use a 8 guage remote for my amp. other then that its all upgraded from alt
to battery to amp to body ground...most 0 some 2 guage and my stuff never
dims even with a bass cd in

Ted J

iTrader: (4)

Well, power wire size isn't going to have much to do with light dimming, that is unless you run too small of a power wire and it won't allow the amp to pull enough current from the electrical system.

If you have 8 gauge wire running to your amp(s) and have a light dimming issue, if you upgrade to 1/0 gauge wire you'll still have a light dimming issue if not maybe worse depending on the size of your amps etc... Light dimming has to do with the amp(s) pulling so much juice that the alternator can't keep up and it causes the voltage to drop in the electrical system long enough for the lights to dim.

8 gauge wire for the remote on your amp? Ahh, isn't that a little overkill for something that just powers up the circuit to turn the amps on? I mean, the amount of current that runs over that wire is so little that running 8 gauge wire for it is like running top fuel drag slicks on my stock LT1 car! ha ha

Now, running 1/0 or 2 gauge to your amps, I can understand that, especially if you are running a system with plenty of watts in it. Regrounding your chassis, again, I can understand that. I assume you are running 1/0 for power and ground and then breaking it up into 2 gauge to each of your amps?

Koncrete

iTrader: (3)

well the 8 guage wasnt a choice, it was the smallest wire I had!
and as far as running cables too big, well my amp is a 1500.1 I could put
4 guage on it and be fine but in jan when I add another 15 and anoth 1500.1
that 4 is going to be awful small. also if I did have any power issues then right
I can absolutly say "I know it not due to too small of wires".....
ok maybe it is overkill.... but damnit it sounded good at the time...and it looks
cool

Ted J

iTrader: (4)

I gotcha man, I needed to bust your chops some about the 8 gauge wire but if it's the smallest you had around I got cha. Just don't want people spending $20 on running remote turn on wire when it's not needed that's all. (like if somebody was reading this that was a newbie or what not)

On your amps, that's kewl you ran the bigger power wire, hope I didn't come across as saying it was bad. Too many times people will run to small of wire and it's always nice to have overkill over that of not enough in that area.

Koncrete

iTrader: (3)

no problems, just wanted to explain more about reasons to use bigger wire first
for some of the newbies. I know on my first install (10 years ago) I ran the
smallest cheapest I could for some mids and highs, then a few months later
I decided to run a jbl 10. dont remember the amp but I used 10guage for the
power and 12 for the ground...then I upgraded to a 15 and a bigger amp
and was running a 1kwatt amp and a 200watt off of the same 10g powerwire
and 12 guage ground. went to a comp and the judge disqualified me for unsafe
installation. I was mad as hell, so there I am yelling at him for like 5min while he
is calm and cool then he says here watch this. he turns my stuff up and lets
it play for about a min then turns everything off pops my hatch and says "Now
smartas grab the powerwire for you sub amp" I grab it and yell......
that damn wire was so freaking hot it left a nice red line accross my fingers...

hope some noob reads this and takes a lesson....wish I woulda known then, just
lucky I didnt catch something on fire