TA fog light upgrade
08-04-2014, 03:58 PM
#21
Putting HIDs in fog lights is not a good idea. Fog lights are not designed for high power output but for a controlled beam that is flat and low to cut under precipitation. If you are relying on fog lights to put light directly in front of the vehicle then you are actually destroying your night vision for things in the distance which is where you really should be looking.
Now, if you want to replace the bulbs with a different color so that they match HID headlights better then the best option is LED replacement bulbs. You can get 880 LED bulbs in white (5000K) that produce 600 lumens (slightly more than the 565 lumens of a halogen bulb). They produce far less heat than halogen or HID and they last essentially forever. carid.com is one place to buy them. Make sure you get the CREE LEDs because there are a lot of other types that are dimmer than stock and purely for decoration.
Now, if you want to replace the bulbs with a different color so that they match HID headlights better then the best option is LED replacement bulbs. You can get 880 LED bulbs in white (5000K) that produce 600 lumens (slightly more than the 565 lumens of a halogen bulb). They produce far less heat than halogen or HID and they last essentially forever. carid.com is one place to buy them. Make sure you get the CREE LEDs because there are a lot of other types that are dimmer than stock and purely for decoration.
08-04-2014, 04:28 PM
#22
Teching In
OK, that sound good. So Ill scrap my 35w HID kit and get the 880 CREE LED bulbs. Whats your opinion on glass vs plastic lens with these bulbs. I believe I read where the LT1's have glass lens. Your correct, I'm not looking to blind anyone just want the lights to work properly as fogs when needed as well as match as closely as possible with the the HID lows.
08-05-2014, 12:17 AM
#25
Copy & Paste Moderator
Unfortunately, all the current drop-in LED bulbs, especially the multi-LED, ones don't preserve the beam pattern. They don't "throw" much light so they are just for show. Also, the stated outputs are nearly as unreliable as peak output ratings of amps.
08-05-2014, 07:03 AM
#26
Yes and no. If you get the multiple SMD LED bulbs then you end up with dim lights that are for looks rather than function. But if you get the newer CREE LEDs, the output is equal to or somewhat better than halogen with no noticeable difference in beam pattern.
I recently bought some H11 CREE MT-G2 LED replacements for my Mustang's fog lights but they were just blindingly bright (they run 1800-2400 lumens depending on the ballast used) so I put them in my projector headlights where they produce the same sharp cutoff beam pattern as the original halogen H9 bulbs.
I then replaced the fog light bulbs with somewhat less extreme CREE XB LED bulbs rated at 850 lumens and they are just the ticket. The output is basically the same as the factory H11 halogen bulbs and the pattern is the same when aimed against a wall at 25 feet. No aim adjustment was necessary.
So I now have all the advantages of HID (5000K color, light produced, etc.) without the disadvantages (slow start-up, heat, extra wiring, incorrect beam pattern, etc.).
I recently bought some H11 CREE MT-G2 LED replacements for my Mustang's fog lights but they were just blindingly bright (they run 1800-2400 lumens depending on the ballast used) so I put them in my projector headlights where they produce the same sharp cutoff beam pattern as the original halogen H9 bulbs.
I then replaced the fog light bulbs with somewhat less extreme CREE XB LED bulbs rated at 850 lumens and they are just the ticket. The output is basically the same as the factory H11 halogen bulbs and the pattern is the same when aimed against a wall at 25 feet. No aim adjustment was necessary.
So I now have all the advantages of HID (5000K color, light produced, etc.) without the disadvantages (slow start-up, heat, extra wiring, incorrect beam pattern, etc.).
08-05-2014, 11:19 PM
#27
Copy & Paste Moderator
It still isn't focused properly. A projector will still have the cut-off due to its shield, but the hot spot and spread won't be as good with the drop-in LED versus the original Halogen bulb. If you compare them side-by-side, you will probably notice that the Halogen bulb will have a brighter, more concentrated hot spot, and further throw than the drop-in LED. It comes down the optics and the shape and position of the light source in the optics.
I've seen some "virtual filament" LED setups that try to mimic the original light source more closely and have better output than other drop-in LEDs, but I haven't seen any for sale. The ones I've seen were experiments/prototypes. Everything I've seen for sale so far was either multi-LED or a single larger LED that doesn't quite cover the right focal point (its not just position but also shape of the light source that comes into play here).
I've seen some of the single-LED units that look somewhat passable, but those had higher lumen output than the stock Halogen bulbs and were in a more forgiving housing.
A H9 bulb outputs 2100+ lumen. For the single-LED drop-in to look like it has brighter output (due to the LED not quite in the right focal point), its lumen output would have to be much higher (like a HID bulb which has 3200 lumen output). This is due to some of the output reflecting in the wrong direction because the LED isn't in the correct focal point for the housing. HID in a Halogen Housing has the same problem, but HID is so much brighter.
Also, many of the drop-in LEDs I've seen seem to have smaller heat sinks / thermal management than what they really need which makes me wonder about longevity. How hot do yours get? Which ones did you get?
I've seen some "virtual filament" LED setups that try to mimic the original light source more closely and have better output than other drop-in LEDs, but I haven't seen any for sale. The ones I've seen were experiments/prototypes. Everything I've seen for sale so far was either multi-LED or a single larger LED that doesn't quite cover the right focal point (its not just position but also shape of the light source that comes into play here).
I've seen some of the single-LED units that look somewhat passable, but those had higher lumen output than the stock Halogen bulbs and were in a more forgiving housing.
A H9 bulb outputs 2100+ lumen. For the single-LED drop-in to look like it has brighter output (due to the LED not quite in the right focal point), its lumen output would have to be much higher (like a HID bulb which has 3200 lumen output). This is due to some of the output reflecting in the wrong direction because the LED isn't in the correct focal point for the housing. HID in a Halogen Housing has the same problem, but HID is so much brighter.
Also, many of the drop-in LEDs I've seen seem to have smaller heat sinks / thermal management than what they really need which makes me wonder about longevity. How hot do yours get? Which ones did you get?
Last edited by VIP1; 08-05-2014 at 11:35 PM.
08-06-2014, 12:23 AM
#28
Copy & Paste Moderator
08-06-2014, 07:37 AM
#29
I can't link to a non-sponsor site but check out the H9/H11 MT-G2 2100 lumen LED headlight replacements on v-led.com. They have two CREE high power LEDs mounted specifically to be in the same position as the filament of the equivalent halogen bulb. They may be similar to the ones you saw in development. They also require a separate ballast and have a large heat sink with built-in fan to handle the heat. Granted, they have no forward facing LED so the total light output is somewhat different but to my eye the difference is unnoticeable in day-to-day driving. My headlights seem to illuminate the road just as they did with the original bulbs. To be honest, I have never noticed a hot spot with these projectors using either halogen or LED bulbs - it just seams to be even light below the cutoff and none above.
It is true that V-LEDS does not recommend their use in projectors - they are designed to be used in halogen reflectors. But I had lengthy conversations with them about my aftermarket projector lamps and they agreed that it was worth a try and that I could return them if they weren't suitable. I kept them but that doesn't mean they would work in all projector lamps. But they should work well in the sort of aftermarket halogen reflector lamps commonly used in 4th generation f-bodies (H4 version available).
It is true that V-LEDS does not recommend their use in projectors - they are designed to be used in halogen reflectors. But I had lengthy conversations with them about my aftermarket projector lamps and they agreed that it was worth a try and that I could return them if they weren't suitable. I kept them but that doesn't mean they would work in all projector lamps. But they should work well in the sort of aftermarket halogen reflector lamps commonly used in 4th generation f-bodies (H4 version available).
08-06-2014, 08:32 PM
#30
Copy & Paste Moderator
I've seen units like those V-LEDS before. Those are the ones I was talking about when I said that although they have 1 large LED aimed at the reflector, they still aren't in the right focal point or shape.
Looking at the pics on their site, I only see 1 LED not 2.
Also, you don't want any LEDs facing outward in this scenario (unless they are encased in a virtual filament). You want the LED aimed at the reflector as close to the position of the original filament as possible. Aiming the LED forward wouldn't use much of the reflector and distance would be greatly reduced (especially in a projector where aiming it forward basically means aiming it at the cut-off shield).
Those V-LEDS are a bit more "raw"/"bare" looking than others I have seen.
Here is a smoother-looking version of the same theme:
(The 4400 Lumen rating in the pic is for both, they are 2200 Lumen each.)
Here is a prototype with a virtual filament (the virtual filament is the clear acrylic - its a light guide):
Also, as I mentioned above, the Lumen rating on pretty much all of these is a bit optimistic. Just because the manufacturer of the LED says that it can output 2100 Lumen, doesn't mean that this particular setup is actually pushing 2100 Lumen. Also, that is typically the max output at the designed current rating. Lots of factors come into play, such as the output of the driver and the heatsink. If the driver can't provide the right current, then the LED won't be emitting its rated max. Also, for safety margin, LEDs are often under-driven for cooler running and longer life.
Either way, these high-power single LED bulbs are far far better than the multi-element ones.
I am tempted to try out these newer high-power single LED bulbs so I can see for myself.
Can you post pics of yours? Maybe one projector with the LED and the other with the H9 bulb? Especially a wall shot at 25 feet and a down-the-road shot.
Every housing is different and some are more forgiving than others.
Looking at the pics on their site, I only see 1 LED not 2.
Also, you don't want any LEDs facing outward in this scenario (unless they are encased in a virtual filament). You want the LED aimed at the reflector as close to the position of the original filament as possible. Aiming the LED forward wouldn't use much of the reflector and distance would be greatly reduced (especially in a projector where aiming it forward basically means aiming it at the cut-off shield).
Those V-LEDS are a bit more "raw"/"bare" looking than others I have seen.
Here is a smoother-looking version of the same theme:
(The 4400 Lumen rating in the pic is for both, they are 2200 Lumen each.)
Here is a prototype with a virtual filament (the virtual filament is the clear acrylic - its a light guide):
Also, as I mentioned above, the Lumen rating on pretty much all of these is a bit optimistic. Just because the manufacturer of the LED says that it can output 2100 Lumen, doesn't mean that this particular setup is actually pushing 2100 Lumen. Also, that is typically the max output at the designed current rating. Lots of factors come into play, such as the output of the driver and the heatsink. If the driver can't provide the right current, then the LED won't be emitting its rated max. Also, for safety margin, LEDs are often under-driven for cooler running and longer life.
Either way, these high-power single LED bulbs are far far better than the multi-element ones.
I am tempted to try out these newer high-power single LED bulbs so I can see for myself.
Can you post pics of yours? Maybe one projector with the LED and the other with the H9 bulb? Especially a wall shot at 25 feet and a down-the-road shot.
Every housing is different and some are more forgiving than others.
Last edited by VIP1; 08-06-2014 at 09:00 PM.
08-06-2014, 08:58 PM
#31
Copy & Paste Moderator
Originally Posted by WhiteBird00
I can't link to a non-sponsor site
08-06-2014, 11:24 PM
#32
Teching In
Wow!! You guys are getting way over my head ...lol! Just trying to find an inexpensive bulb that I can use with stock housing that is close to my HID low beams. $130.00 for 2 bulbs is a bit steep for me. If not I can try the foglights that the OP used but I would want a brighter bulb that would fit the housing. CarID suggested a plasma LED and when it arrived it had a 90 angle connector and it was too thick to fit in the housing.
08-06-2014, 11:56 PM
#33
Copy & Paste Moderator
If that plasma LED is what I'm thinking, it is a newer-style multi-element COB LED and won't have much distance/throw. It'll basically be a really bright DRL. Bright for Taillights and DRL, but not for headlights or fog lights.
Something like this right?
(this one is a H11, but their listing says it fits 880 as well, which surprises me)
Something like this right?
(this one is a H11, but their listing says it fits 880 as well, which surprises me)
Last edited by VIP1; 08-07-2014 at 12:01 AM.
08-07-2014, 07:25 AM
#34
I can assure you that the ones I've bought have two LEDs mounted back-to-back on opposite sides of the post. I've held them in my hand and I don't think I was imagining the second LED. 
Getting back to the original fog light question...
There is something you should realize about the "fog lights" in f-bodies - they're toys. In fact, Daniel Stern Lighting is quite specific about that, calling them "ANSI cosmetic toy fog" bulbs. (http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...ulb_types.html) They produce only 540 lumens of unfocused light and are there for looks only.
So installing the LED bulbs like the ones in VIP1's last post will give you about the same output (600 lumens) but in the color you want without the heat, extra wiring or slow start up of HIDs. They're about $60 per pair.
If you want real fog lights, you'll have to replace the factory ones with a true fog light housing and lens.
Getting back to the original fog light question...
There is something you should realize about the "fog lights" in f-bodies - they're toys. In fact, Daniel Stern Lighting is quite specific about that, calling them "ANSI cosmetic toy fog" bulbs. (http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...ulb_types.html) They produce only 540 lumens of unfocused light and are there for looks only.
So installing the LED bulbs like the ones in VIP1's last post will give you about the same output (600 lumens) but in the color you want without the heat, extra wiring or slow start up of HIDs. They're about $60 per pair.
If you want real fog lights, you'll have to replace the factory ones with a true fog light housing and lens.
08-07-2014, 11:33 AM
#35
Teching In
Something like this right?
(this one is a H11, but their listing says it fits 880 as well, which surprises me)
That's exactly what they sent VIP1. So, I'll return those today, ditch my stock housing (since they are warped and burnt from my HID's anyway) and look for an inexpensive true fog light with cut off.
(this one is a H11, but their listing says it fits 880 as well, which surprises me)
That's exactly what they sent VIP1. So, I'll return those today, ditch my stock housing (since they are warped and burnt from my HID's anyway) and look for an inexpensive true fog light with cut off.
08-07-2014, 11:40 AM
#36
Teching In
I can assure you that the ones I've bought have two LEDs mounted back-to-back on opposite sides of the post. I've held them in my hand and I don't think I was imagining the second LED.
Getting back to the original fog light question...
There is something you should realize about the "fog lights" in f-bodies - they're toys. In fact, Daniel Stern Lighting is quite specific about that, calling them "ANSI cosmetic toy fog" bulbs. (http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...ulb_types.html) They produce only 540 lumens of unfocused light and are there for looks only.
So installing the LED bulbs like the ones in VIP1's last post will give you about the same output (600 lumens) but in the color you want without the heat, extra wiring or slow start up of HIDs. They're about $60 per pair.
If you want real fog lights, you'll have to replace the factory ones with a true fog light housing and lens.
Getting back to the original fog light question...
There is something you should realize about the "fog lights" in f-bodies - they're toys. In fact, Daniel Stern Lighting is quite specific about that, calling them "ANSI cosmetic toy fog" bulbs. (http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...ulb_types.html) They produce only 540 lumens of unfocused light and are there for looks only.
So installing the LED bulbs like the ones in VIP1's last post will give you about the same output (600 lumens) but in the color you want without the heat, extra wiring or slow start up of HIDs. They're about $60 per pair.
If you want real fog lights, you'll have to replace the factory ones with a true fog light housing and lens.
08-07-2014, 11:29 PM
#37
Copy & Paste Moderator
If you want to try something a bit more custom and have better output, check out the BMW X5 LED or TRS Morimoto XB LED fog lights.
They are both a bit smaller than the stock fog lights though.
BMW X5 LED Fog- $60 a pair - not quite round though
http://www.theretrofitsource.com/clo...og-lights.html
TRS Morimoto XB LED Fog - $175 / pair
http://www.theretrofitsource.com/com...l#.U-RRs2NN1GQ
Here are 2013 Mustang GT LED Fog Lights $120 - $175 / pair on ebay
They might be too large though. I don't see measurements, but they look a bit tall on my Mustang.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Ford-201...-/161385235470
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-LED-...-/221517042182
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-LED-...-/291210051147
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-2013-201...-/321393674554
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-2014-FO...-/231297292590
Here is a thread where someone opened them up and swapped the LEDs / Driver / Optics into a smaller reflector and still kept similar beam pattern:
http://www.sn95forums.com/showthread...04-Cobra/page3
They are both a bit smaller than the stock fog lights though.
BMW X5 LED Fog- $60 a pair - not quite round though
http://www.theretrofitsource.com/clo...og-lights.html
TRS Morimoto XB LED Fog - $175 / pair
http://www.theretrofitsource.com/com...l#.U-RRs2NN1GQ
Here are 2013 Mustang GT LED Fog Lights $120 - $175 / pair on ebay
They might be too large though. I don't see measurements, but they look a bit tall on my Mustang.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Ford-201...-/161385235470
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-LED-...-/221517042182
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-LED-...-/291210051147
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-2013-201...-/321393674554
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-2014-FO...-/231297292590
Here is a thread where someone opened them up and swapped the LEDs / Driver / Optics into a smaller reflector and still kept similar beam pattern:
http://www.sn95forums.com/showthread...04-Cobra/page3
Last edited by VIP1; 08-08-2014 at 12:02 AM.
08-08-2014, 12:07 PM
#38
Teching In
OK, I've decided to order a set of stock fog light housing and then get the 880 LED. Is any difference between Cree Q5 LED and PLasma LED? They both fit front what I can see. I was able to find the plasma LED with a straight connector that would fit into the housing.
This what I found on ebay:
CREE Q5 LED 880 893 890 899 Xenon Bright White 6000K Lamp 2 Bulb #ce25 Fog Light
This what I found on ebay:
CREE Q5 LED 880 893 890 899 Xenon Bright White 6000K Lamp 2 Bulb #ce25 Fog Light
Last edited by WhiteBird00; 08-08-2014 at 12:49 PM. Reason: Merge consecutive posts
08-08-2014, 12:52 PM
#39
There is no such thing as a plasma LED. Plasma and LED are two different lighting technologies with plasma being better for high output applications like street lighting while LED is better for household and automotive use.
Companies that sell "Plasma LED" bulbs are just using the term for marketing purposes without valid science behind it. They're all just LEDs (although there are numerous types of LEDs with different characteristics).
If that eBay bulb is the one I found there for $8.90, it won't work (it has only one forward facing LED). The 10-CREE-XB-D 50W 640 lumens on eBay should work for $27 and it has the straight connector as well. Expect to pay about $30 each to get bulbs that will do the job. Anything less and you will be seriously disappointed.
Companies that sell "Plasma LED" bulbs are just using the term for marketing purposes without valid science behind it. They're all just LEDs (although there are numerous types of LEDs with different characteristics).
If that eBay bulb is the one I found there for $8.90, it won't work (it has only one forward facing LED). The 10-CREE-XB-D 50W 640 lumens on eBay should work for $27 and it has the straight connector as well. Expect to pay about $30 each to get bulbs that will do the job. Anything less and you will be seriously disappointed.
Last edited by WhiteBird00; 08-08-2014 at 12:59 PM.
08-09-2014, 05:19 PM
#40
Copy & Paste Moderator
Maybe you can fit Audi A6 Hella Fog Projectors:
http://www.hidplanet.com/forums/show...ast-bulbs-misc
This guy has them for $72
http://www.hidplanet.com/forums/show...ast-bulbs-misc
This guy has them for $72