Kicker VS Alpine
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 11,328
Likes: 345
From: Jacksonville, FL (originally from Toronto Canada)
Originally Posted by SSactionLs1
90% of speaker issues, are do to lack of power. Lack of power causes distortion. Distortion blows speakers.
Ordinary distortion doesn't damage speakers either. Distortion is just part of the signal as far as a speaker is concerned. Clipping is what destroys speakers (and overdriving, of course).
Lack of power doesn't cause distortion. In fact, reducing power almost always improves the distortion level. That's why amps show their THD at their rated output - if they could show THD at minimal output then even the cheapest amp would look like it was distortion free.
Originally Posted by 95bat
On top of that, it would also be argued that Goldstreak65 would not hear a difference with 200 watts as compared to 125 watts. Supposedly you need to double your power to make an audible difference... I am not really a full believer in that, though. Or I have super human hearing, one of the two
Originally Posted by WhiteBird00
This is a common myth that seems to crop up here every once in a while. Underpowering a speaker (any speaker, sub or otherwise) will not in any way cause damage. If that were true, the mere act of turning down the volume would cause speaker damage - a totally foolish idea.
Ordinary distortion doesn't damage speakers either. Distortion is just part of the signal as far as a speaker is concerned. Clipping is what destroys speakers (and overdriving, of course).
Lack of power doesn't cause distortion. In fact, reducing power almost always improves the distortion level. That's why amps show their THD at their rated output - if they could show THD at minimal output then even the cheapest amp would look like it was distortion free.
Doubling the power results in a 3dB increase in volume. 1dB is the smallest increment that the average human ear can distinguish so doubling the power is more than just a barely discernable increase but it isn't double the volume. You need ten times the power to double the volume (about a 6dB increase).
Ordinary distortion doesn't damage speakers either. Distortion is just part of the signal as far as a speaker is concerned. Clipping is what destroys speakers (and overdriving, of course).
Lack of power doesn't cause distortion. In fact, reducing power almost always improves the distortion level. That's why amps show their THD at their rated output - if they could show THD at minimal output then even the cheapest amp would look like it was distortion free.
Doubling the power results in a 3dB increase in volume. 1dB is the smallest increment that the average human ear can distinguish so doubling the power is more than just a barely discernable increase but it isn't double the volume. You need ten times the power to double the volume (about a 6dB increase).
The second bold statement is a little off. Here is an e-mail straight from JL Audio I received when I asked about a custom amplifier.
We do not offer any type of custom applications.
If you look to our line up of amplifiers, you will notice that as you go up in power, the power is doubled; 250/1(250watts), 500/1(500watts) & 1000/1(1000watts). The reasoning behind this is the differences of output that makes a difference. The only time you can hear a difference in power, is when you are comparing double or half the power. This difference is 3dB. This dB is the smallest amount of output difference that a human hearing can pick up. So, if we decided to offer an amplifier that had more power then the 1000/1, it would be a 2000/1(2000watts). We have no plans on offering such an amplifier.
So, there would not be a noticeable difference between 1000watts vs 1500watts.
If you look to our line up of amplifiers, you will notice that as you go up in power, the power is doubled; 250/1(250watts), 500/1(500watts) & 1000/1(1000watts). The reasoning behind this is the differences of output that makes a difference. The only time you can hear a difference in power, is when you are comparing double or half the power. This difference is 3dB. This dB is the smallest amount of output difference that a human hearing can pick up. So, if we decided to offer an amplifier that had more power then the 1000/1, it would be a 2000/1(2000watts). We have no plans on offering such an amplifier.
So, there would not be a noticeable difference between 1000watts vs 1500watts.
So, back on topic, I would get an amp that puts out 100-150, set the gains with a DMM, and if it is too loud you can always turn it down. There is no reason to buy an amp that will give the 125 watt speakers 200 watts of super clean power, it will cost way too much just to power Alpine/Kicker speakers.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 11,328
Likes: 345
From: Jacksonville, FL (originally from Toronto Canada)
Originally Posted by 95bat
The second bold statement is a little off. Here is an e-mail straight from JL Audio I received when I asked about a custom amplifier.
According to them, and just about everyone else who I've talked to, 3 dB is the smallest difference we can hear which requires double the power.
According to them, and just about everyone else who I've talked to, 3 dB is the smallest difference we can hear which requires double the power.
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
You are both right.
from Wikipedia: Under controlled conditions, in an acoustical laboratory, the trained healthy human ear is able to discern changes in sound levels of 1 dB, when exposed to steady, single frequency ("pure tone") signals in the mid-frequency range. It is widely accepted that the average healthy ear, however, can barely perceive noise level changes of 3 dB.
from Wikipedia: Under controlled conditions, in an acoustical laboratory, the trained healthy human ear is able to discern changes in sound levels of 1 dB, when exposed to steady, single frequency ("pure tone") signals in the mid-frequency range. It is widely accepted that the average healthy ear, however, can barely perceive noise level changes of 3 dB.
Originally Posted by Zealot
You are both right.
from Wikipedia: Under controlled conditions, in an acoustical laboratory, the trained healthy human ear is able to discern changes in sound levels of 1 dB, when exposed to steady, single frequency ("pure tone") signals in the mid-frequency range. It is widely accepted that the average healthy ear, however, can barely perceive noise level changes of 3 dB.
from Wikipedia: Under controlled conditions, in an acoustical laboratory, the trained healthy human ear is able to discern changes in sound levels of 1 dB, when exposed to steady, single frequency ("pure tone") signals in the mid-frequency range. It is widely accepted that the average healthy ear, however, can barely perceive noise level changes of 3 dB.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,255
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From: nor cal (ripon)
Originally Posted by 95bat
For 90% of the issues being caused by 1 problem, this is the first time I've ever heard that claim.
This is like saying you will damage your car driving it if you don't floor it from every stop light. It makes no sense.
This is like saying you will damage your car driving it if you don't floor it from every stop light. It makes no sense.
so no, its not.
Originally Posted by WhiteBird00
This is a common myth that seems to crop up here every once in a while. Underpowering a speaker (any speaker, sub or otherwise) will not in any way cause damage. If that were true, the mere act of turning down the volume would cause speaker damage - a totally foolish idea.
Ordinary distortion doesn't damage speakers either. Distortion is just part of the signal as far as a speaker is concerned. Clipping is what destroys speakers (and overdriving, of course).
Lack of power doesn't cause distortion. In fact, reducing power almost always improves the distortion level. That's why amps show their THD at their rated output - if they could show THD at minimal output then even the cheapest amp would look like it was distortion free.
Doubling the power results in a 3dB increase in volume. 1dB is the smallest increment that the average human ear can distinguish so doubling the power is more than just a barely discernable increase but it isn't double the volume. You need ten times the power to double the volume (about a 6dB increase).
Ordinary distortion doesn't damage speakers either. Distortion is just part of the signal as far as a speaker is concerned. Clipping is what destroys speakers (and overdriving, of course).
Lack of power doesn't cause distortion. In fact, reducing power almost always improves the distortion level. That's why amps show their THD at their rated output - if they could show THD at minimal output then even the cheapest amp would look like it was distortion free.
Doubling the power results in a 3dB increase in volume. 1dB is the smallest increment that the average human ear can distinguish so doubling the power is more than just a barely discernable increase but it isn't double the volume. You need ten times the power to double the volume (about a 6dB increase).
I hate to tell you that dropping down gains on amplifiers, DOES NOT mean u are giving the speakers less watts, PERIOD. As for my comment on underpowering speakers, I still stand by my word, speakers burn up when they are given DC current. This happens when u are pushing an amplifier out of its range. Ask a tech at a reputable shop about it.
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From: nor cal (ripon)
Originally Posted by WhiteBird00
This is a common myth that seems to crop up here every once in a while. Underpowering a speaker (any speaker, sub or otherwise) will not in any way cause damage. If that were true, the mere act of turning down the volume would cause speaker damage - a totally foolish idea.
Ordinary distortion doesn't damage speakers either. Distortion is just part of the signal as far as a speaker is concerned. Clipping is what destroys speakers (and overdriving, of course).
Lack of power doesn't cause distortion. In fact, reducing power almost always improves the distortion level. That's why amps show their THD at their rated output - if they could show THD at minimal output then even the cheapest amp would look like it was distortion free.
Doubling the power results in a 3dB increase in volume. 1dB is the smallest increment that the average human ear can distinguish so doubling the power is more than just a barely discernable increase but it isn't double the volume. You need ten times the power to double the volume (about a 6dB increase).
Ordinary distortion doesn't damage speakers either. Distortion is just part of the signal as far as a speaker is concerned. Clipping is what destroys speakers (and overdriving, of course).
Lack of power doesn't cause distortion. In fact, reducing power almost always improves the distortion level. That's why amps show their THD at their rated output - if they could show THD at minimal output then even the cheapest amp would look like it was distortion free.
Doubling the power results in a 3dB increase in volume. 1dB is the smallest increment that the average human ear can distinguish so doubling the power is more than just a barely discernable increase but it isn't double the volume. You need ten times the power to double the volume (about a 6dB increase).
Most people blow speakers because they send a clipped signal which distorts the driver. The more power you have, the more headroom you have to work with. Headroom is a FANTASTIC thing to have when you want a loud yet CLEAR stereo system. If you have alot of headroom, and your gains are set CORRECTLY, chances are your factory mids will last with xxx amount of power.
Turning down the volume is in no way related to total power output of the amplifier. Same with gain settings. The amplifer is amplifying signal, now reguardless of gain settings, peaks will happen. The more power/headroom you have, the less likely these peaks will cause clipping. Increasing speaker life.
Last edited by SSactionLs1; Mar 1, 2007 at 01:46 AM.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Fanatic
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From: nor cal (ripon)
Originally Posted by 95bat
I completely agree with the first bold statement. A clipped signal and pushing a driver beyond its mechanical limits will definately ruin a speaker.
The second bold statement is a little off. Here is an e-mail straight from JL Audio I received when I asked about a custom amplifier.
According to them, and just about everyone else who I've talked to, 3 dB is the smallest difference we can hear which requires double the power.
So, back on topic, I would get an amp that puts out 100-150, set the gains with a DMM, and if it is too loud you can always turn it down. There is no reason to buy an amp that will give the 125 watt speakers 200 watts of super clean power, it will cost way too much just to power Alpine/Kicker speakers.
The second bold statement is a little off. Here is an e-mail straight from JL Audio I received when I asked about a custom amplifier.
According to them, and just about everyone else who I've talked to, 3 dB is the smallest difference we can hear which requires double the power.
So, back on topic, I would get an amp that puts out 100-150, set the gains with a DMM, and if it is too loud you can always turn it down. There is no reason to buy an amp that will give the 125 watt speakers 200 watts of super clean power, it will cost way too much just to power Alpine/Kicker speakers.
Originally Posted by WhiteBird00
Lack of power doesn't cause distortion. In fact, reducing power almost always improves the distortion level. That's why amps show their THD at their rated output - if they could show THD at minimal output then even the cheapest amp would look like it was distortion free.
Last edited by ultraz; Mar 1, 2007 at 02:19 AM.
back on topic, A nice set of Polk DB's is all u need. They are Great all around speakers and I would reccomend them over any Infinity, kickers, eclipse, or MTx within 50$ of their price. They are usually around 200$ a set of components, u can usually get a buy one set, getthe second set half off at CC every now and then.
OF course it sounds like already know someone at CC, so give polk DB, or Momo's a try
OF course it sounds like already know someone at CC, so give polk DB, or Momo's a try
TECH Addict
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,591
Likes: 1
From: Massachusetts
Originally Posted by WhiteBird00
Nope, sorry...by definition one dB is the smallest change that the human ear can recognize. That's what the decibel scale is based on. Their email is correct that doubling power results in a 3dB increase in sound but that is not the smallest amount that is perceptible. A 3dB increase is actually a 23% increase in volume - certainly more than just barely noticeable. Feel free to look up decibel in any encyclopedia or go to the Basic Car Audio Electronics site and scroll to page 69 for more information.
I can also hear a few kHz past 20kHz without issue...
Such "limits" are generalizations and it kinda bugs me when they are treated as actual limits.
for all u ney-sayers. http://www.carsound.com/articles/pub...icle_410.shtml
read that. This is a car built for sound quality and they cannot stress headroom. They are feeding 600 watts to each component up front and do very well in competitions.
“You want to have as much headroom as possible,” explains Petracca. “With today’s more reasonable amplifier prices, there’s no reason to not have as much power as possible.”
Competition & The Future
Once they finished the vehicle, Petracca and Acevedo went to the Steel Valley Regional in West Virginia on a whim. When they took first place in the Expert Street class, they decided to throw their hat into the competition ring once again. They’ve now taken the daily driver to 13 IASCA shows so far in 2004 and have won 12 first place trophies and 10 “Best of Show” honors.
read that. This is a car built for sound quality and they cannot stress headroom. They are feeding 600 watts to each component up front and do very well in competitions.
“You want to have as much headroom as possible,” explains Petracca. “With today’s more reasonable amplifier prices, there’s no reason to not have as much power as possible.”
Competition & The Future
Once they finished the vehicle, Petracca and Acevedo went to the Steel Valley Regional in West Virginia on a whim. When they took first place in the Expert Street class, they decided to throw their hat into the competition ring once again. They’ve now taken the daily driver to 13 IASCA shows so far in 2004 and have won 12 first place trophies and 10 “Best of Show” honors.
TECH Addict
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,591
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From: Massachusetts
I don't care about what they say. Headroom is useless when you don't use it. Period. And you will NEVER, EVER use 600 watts or likely even 300 watts with component speakers in the real world (well, assuming you're in the car). Not even for a split second. Unless that split second is the split second you're reaching for the volume to turn it the FSCK DOWN!
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 11,328
Likes: 345
From: Jacksonville, FL (originally from Toronto Canada)
Originally Posted by SSactionLs1
Most people blow speakers because they send a clipped signal which distorts the driver. The more power you have, the more headroom you have to work with. Headroom is a FANTASTIC thing to have when you want a loud yet CLEAR stereo system. If you have alot of headroom, and your gains are set CORRECTLY, chances are your factory mids will last with xxx amount of power.
Turning down the volume is in no way related to total power output of the amplifier. Same with gain settings. The amplifer is amplifying signal, now reguardless of gain settings, peaks will happen. The more power/headroom you have, the less likely these peaks will cause clipping. Increasing speaker life.
Turning down the volume is in no way related to total power output of the amplifier. Same with gain settings. The amplifer is amplifying signal, now reguardless of gain settings, peaks will happen. The more power/headroom you have, the less likely these peaks will cause clipping. Increasing speaker life.
Using an underpowered amp can cause speaker damage because the amp is closer to its limits for any given volume level and therefore more likely to clip the signal. However, this is not the same thing as saying that running too little power to a speaker will damage the speaker. As long as the signal is clean it doesn't matter how little power is driving it - it won't damage a speaker. In other words underpowering a speaker will not damage the speaker but using an underpowered amp may damage the speakers.
TECH Addict
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Massachusetts
I don't like your way of putting it either. It still makes it sound like it's NOT installer/user error, which short of failure of the amp, it is. Try this: "It is often possible to damage speakers using an underpowered amp." I add the "often" because it was pointed out to me on another forum that there's no way you're going to blow a Fi BTL (or equivalent super sub) with a 50W amp, clipped signal or not.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 11,328
Likes: 345
From: Jacksonville, FL (originally from Toronto Canada)
Originally Posted by dragonrage
I don't like your way of putting it either. It still makes it sound like it's NOT installer/user error, which short of failure of the amp, it is. Try this: "It is often possible to damage speakers using an underpowered amp." I add the "often" because it was pointed out to me on another forum that there's no way you're going to blow a Fi BTL (or equivalent super sub) with a 50W amp, clipped signal or not.
Wow havn't checked the thread in a day and look what happens.
So there are some that are a fan of just giving the speaker which is approx 100 rms about the same or tad bit more from the amp 95Bat said feed it with a 125 amp.
Some are saying 200 watts no problem as long as its clean and theres no clipping go to town with it. Thats cool too.
On gut instinct and probably shear ignorance alone I would like to see about 175 -250 minimum to each componet. I tend to be a fan of overkill. Now heres the questions
Assumming Kicker amps are a good product for the money(say what u feel here)
and I wanted a four channel so I could power not only the fronts but the rear speakers as well how do I limit the power going to the rear coaxials if the're rated for say 40rms and the amp is a 175 rms X 4
thanks guys really appreciate the help!
So there are some that are a fan of just giving the speaker which is approx 100 rms about the same or tad bit more from the amp 95Bat said feed it with a 125 amp.
Some are saying 200 watts no problem as long as its clean and theres no clipping go to town with it. Thats cool too.
On gut instinct and probably shear ignorance alone I would like to see about 175 -250 minimum to each componet. I tend to be a fan of overkill. Now heres the questions
Assumming Kicker amps are a good product for the money(say what u feel here)
and I wanted a four channel so I could power not only the fronts but the rear speakers as well how do I limit the power going to the rear coaxials if the're rated for say 40rms and the amp is a 175 rms X 4
thanks guys really appreciate the help!
TECH Addict
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,591
Likes: 1
From: Massachusetts
You can limit the power to them by not plugging them in 
Seriously, though, your fader should be mostly to the front, so with gains equal (or fader set to 0 and the rear gain considerably lower than the front gain) and you shouldn't have any problem.
Seriously, though, your fader should be mostly to the front, so with gains equal (or fader set to 0 and the rear gain considerably lower than the front gain) and you shouldn't have any problem.