white3800camaro

iTrader: (6)

My 3-4 feels like it going.
Hesitates going into 3rd, tranmission only has 20,000 on it.
I believe current clutches were Altos


I am wanting to use Borg Warner HE with the better Kolene steels.


Is there a perfered thickness of either?


How many of each?

Part numbers?

braiden1

The 4L65E 3-4 clutch pack has seven .062" high energy frictions with six .097" steels. Keep the clearance on the tight side and it will be fine. The Alto frictions for the 3-4 don't work well in this application use Borg Warner High Energy or Raybestos Stage 1 frictions.

malibutwins

iTrader: (1)

I use 10 (.065") Borg-Warner 4L65E Hi-Energy clutches, and 9 (.060") Kolene steels, 1 (.096" or .106") top pressure plate, 1 (.128") bottom pressure plate, and a (.062") snap ring. Set clutch clearance at .022"-.035". Dana turned me on to this setup and it works great!!!!!

SnIpEz

iTrader: (4)

You have the right idea with the Hi Energy clutches, but why the Kolene steels exactly?

white3800camaro

iTrader: (6)

That the right clutch? Says 01-up

PBA

Kolene treatment of the steels is very similar to "nitriding" a crankshaft. The properties are that it increases the hardness slightly, and offer better wear than the standard steels.

WRT

The factory steels since '98 have PTFE coating done to them. That's why they are 3x the price. It also increases hardness and helps with heat control. Kolene steels are very good, but in this application test have shown the factory coated steels may perform the same if not better.

sprayedenali

iTrader: (11)

i strongly disagree with this setup....

mrvedit

Here is what my last build has. A local trans shop is now using this too for their performance rebuilds and is holding up well for everyone:

8 Friction with GPZ105

.215 Apply
8x .066 Friction GPZ105
7x .078 Kolene steel (TranStar part #74120AK)
.157 Backing
.092 Snap ring (stock)

==> .038 to 0.040 dry clearance (about .032 wet)

---------------

Personally I don't trust the really thin apply plate (like the 1/2 thickness .128 mentioned above). I think that PATC has a video that shows it deforming when applied with decent line pressure; that will then deform the frictions and steels. (I'm no expert and have no experience with that, just my gut feeling.)

I also don't have real experience with the GPZ105 frictions, but these are the ones Raybestos is now recommending as their best performance frictions and a step up from their High Energy frictions.They are even offering a 100,000 mile guarantee (including labor I think) on professional rebuilds.

As everyone says, the Kolene or PTFE steels are well worth their premium price. As as braiden1 says, keep the clearance on the tight side, below .050. (A loose clearance with higher line pressure can give a slamming effect and feel.)

Last, make sure the 3rd accumulator check ball in the servo area is not leaking. A .500 boost valve (e.g. from Sonnax) will increase line pressure and increase the life of the 3/4 clutch.

PBA

The factory steels (.106") are lindered. This is not a coating but a chemical and heat treatment similar to the Kolene process. This makes the steels very hard and they wear very well. I would have liked to seen this offered for the .060" & .076" steels also, but the Kolene treatment is what is available for these only. With both of these setups the hardness goes approximately .005" - .007" deep. Having built hundred's of these transmissions, the .125" - .130" apply plate or backing plate has never been a problem or the using the thin steels. GM gave up trying to prevent "coning" back in the late 1980's, finding that it really did not hurt in the long run. I have torn down many transmissions with over 200K miles on them and the 3-4 clutches still in decent shape and all the steels and clutches were all coned. The clutch determines what heat will be dissipated to a high degree. It has to to do with how much oil it will hold and the type of clutch material being used. The Borg Warner Hi-Energy is very good at this and the Alto is very poor one from what I have seen since the mid 1990's. If there is not enough oil in the clutch (to take away the heat) and or the clutch takes to long to apply, then there will be excessive heat buildup which can cause glazing, which in turn seals the clutch from getting oil in or letting oil out. Now the clutch starts to overheat, which in turn starts to slip and damage the steel clutch. The thinner steel clutch can warp easier than a thick one, but the damage is already done from the clutch going away first. By knowing what order this happens you will see that the thinner steel is not to blame here (as has been the case for the last few years). The steel cannot burn up a clutch, but the clutch will ruin the steel if the clutch starts to glaze.

chevrolet all the way

iTrader: (24)

Ive seen several different setups have several different failures. Have any of you guys ran the z pak? ive had a lot of good luck with them.

ive seen a similar wear pattern on every thin clutch setup. Every 3-4 pack from slip at wot 2-3 shift to no 3rd had the clutches only burnt on the inside of the clutches. not even a hint of heat towards the outside. of course they were all warped so no good reads on what the clearances were from the previous builders. I pulled a z pak out of my truck after around 5-6k mies during a converter change. no hints of heat in any area on the clutches or wear was showing up. i know this is a normal wear pattern but its been much more evident in these thinner clutch setups.

since we are on the subject of 3-4s, of course centrifical force is a problem. what are you guys doing about it? any one running the factory little 3-4 release springs also?

sorry if this is scatered. i got a little carried away with energy drinks this morning :o

malibutwins

iTrader: (1)

I use what works for me. My truck weighs 5500lbs with me in it and runs 12.50 the clutch pack that Dana sold me works great. I dont know why it wouldnt work in a lighter car.

mrvedit

PBA, thank you for your insight and experience with the thin apply plate being OK to use. It seems from your comments that you are suggesting using the thickest frictions and not being too concerned about the thickness of the steels or apply plate.

Chevrolet_all_the_way, to handle the centrifugal force problem, I use the Transgo "Clutch Spring Kit" (included in HD2) to replace the input drum check ball with just an orifice. I then use 16 stiff Transgo springs in the 3/4 spring cage (not the 22 they recommend for hi-rev as the 16 are already nearly twice as stiff as stock) and I use the 3/4 release springs. Since I run a tight .032 clearance, I want the release springs to keep the frictions separated when not engaged.
I have no experience with the z-pak, but have read posts claiming it isn't strong enough to support 400+ ft/lbs. (I have one, but never used it; be happy to sell it.)

malibutwins

iTrader: (1)

If you use PBA's Pro Street Elite kit and follow Dana's instructions on the Trans Go kit You should be good.

chevrolet all the way

iTrader: (24)

I as well use the transgo spring kit. never tried to only run 16 springs on the 3-4.

as far as the zpak, im not sure how much torque my truck makes, but it runs deep in the 7s in the 1/8th on low boost and weighs around 4500. no problems yet for me!

im running the 3-4 release springs and clearance is .038

lt1pwr1

iTrader: (1)

FWIW- My 99 Sierra 4x4 has the Zpak installed and the trans just hit the 30K mark since it was rebuilt and shifts absolutely perfect. I've done quite a bit of towing with it too.

white3800camaro

iTrader: (6)

Are less then good clutches usually the problem?

A trans guy told me its a vette servo that usually causes it, I don't exactly believe him

mrvedit

Premium quality clutches certainly will help. IMHO, a big part of the problem is insufficient clamping force on the 3/4 clutch. The factory has relatively low line pressure for soft shifts in family cars, but the pressure to the 3/4 clutch can also go down due to leakage as the trans wears. Therefore, just replacing the 3/4 clutch without any attention to the valve body, etc, can lead to premature failure.

The comment about the vette servo has some truth to it, again IMHO. The vette servo will require more volume/pressure from the 3/4 circuit to disengage the 2nd gear band and thereby might cause the 3/4 clutch slip a bit more before it engages. I have not examined the Corvette's separator plate, but I suspect it has a slightly larger 3rd apply hole to compensate for this. Therefore just putting a corvette servo into a non-corvette 4L60e might be hard on the 3/4 clutch. I understand that all Camaros and other performance cars came factory with the Corvette servo and presumably the corresponding separator plate.
The Transgo and Sonnax shift kits direct the installer to significantly increase the size of the 3rd apply hole in the separator plate. Combining this with a boost valve to increase line pressure will greatly increase the life of the 3/4 clutch even with the Corvette servo.
I'm no expert, but based on my experience and careful study of the hydraulic circuits, this is my opinion.

72blownvert

There is no substitute for a properly assembled trans.There are multiple clutch and steel combinations from z packs to altos and high energy clutches and koline steels all work well in a properly built unit.If a rebuilt unit burns up the 3-4s in a few thousand miles or so 9 out of 10 times its the builders fault.I do a ton of 60s and its been years since a unit comes back with a burned up 3-4 pack.I am not bragging im just saying i think most builders forget or just don't know that its also about the little things that makes the difference in a ok working unit vs a awesome working unit.IE clutch pack clearences,proper endplay,and making sure everything in the hydraulic system is working properly,and of course the proper parts for the application. Just my .02 cents.

mrvedit

+1
Its not just the parts, its the right combination of parts, properly assembly for that combination and spending the time to ensure nothing was overlooked.