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In the face of adversity I'm trying to be open-minded and fair.
What would you say to a guy that claims a transmission expert told him you could build a Stage III 4L60E with stock clutches and it will hold power ... as high as 700 to 800 RWHP?
This is the type of information I am normally given:
Thin blue, red, high energy or brown clutches used with thin steels in the 700R4 / 4L60E 3-4 clutch pack will not hold up in a performance / heavy duty 700R4 transmission with over 400 horse power. The reason being the thin steel plates warp up from the extreme heat then the thin clutches burn up. The thin steel plates will not dissipate the heat fast enough.
The problem is a combination of thin and narrow design of the steel plates. Thin red clutches used with thin steels work well in all transmissions, but not in the 700R4 transmission 3-4 clutch pack with high horse power.
For these reasons we only use the more expensive Raybestos Blue Plate Special clutches with full thickness steels or Alto Red Eagle clutches with full thickness Kolene steels in our level 3 and 4, 700 Raptor transmission 3-4 clutch packs. Eight clutches are the maximum number you can use in the 3-4 clutch pack with full thickness steels. Nine clutches used with thin steels will not work with over 400 horse power.
I know people argue back and forth about the WHAT clutches to upgrade to ... but, NO upgrade?
The stock Borg Warner High Energy clutches work very well. Raybestos GPZ line as well.
It states he uses Raybestos Blue's or Alto Reds with full thickness steels? These are not stock frictions, Though I don't think they are an "Upgrade"
I find the "Blue's" to feel funny on a 2-3 shift, Almost a "Slide Bump", If you have ever felt a Blue Friction.....The lining is a super hard resin like material.
However I don't have the education to verify the coefficient of friction vs other friction materials. I do know they "Hold/Soak" no ATF at all, So I don't see how they get cooled off after a shift other than depending solely on the steels as a heat sink.
Alto Reds, As stated work pretty well in anything but a 3-4 clutch, They just flat DO NOT hold up for this application in my experience, I think it is the heat that kills them from constant cycling of the 3-4 clutch in hard daily driving. Also they don't hold much fluid in the friction material compared to a High Energy Carbon-Graphite friction material.
I am a "Thicker Steel is better" guy, To me full thickness steels means .095" thick, I assume he is using .076"? But Friction surface area is also important for holding power.
It is all a balancing act when it comes to 3-4 clutches. The best balance I have found is with High Energy frictions.
Sorry guys ... I didn't mean to throw anybody off by the example quote. I should have emphasized this sentence more:
"I know people argue back and forth about the WHAT clutches to upgrade to ... but, NO upgrade?"
What I am asking is, what transmission expert advocates that stock clutch packs in a high-horsepower car is adequate? Also, aren't billet parts helpful? Would you build a transmission and claim it is stage III or stage V or whatever your premium build is, and not put the most durable, strongest components in it? Would you not at least put in it what you advertise goes into it?
I'm not calling out any particular builder here ... I just have a question about selling a "Stage X" premium transmission, not putting much of anything beyond stock components in it and selling it for $3,000, and when it's broken down and there is little that is remarkable about the parts, saying "it's how it is built, not what it's built with".
How many different ways can you build a transmission other than putting together such a precision piece of gear the RIGHT way?
just a reminder, the trans is 100% hydralic l have experimented with all kinds of clutch materal, even brass. For what it's worth line pressure is the trick. l have COPO cars with 1000+ hp with small clutches and with high line and they live just fine. To the other builders l DO NOT work on 700s or 4l60-65s that's for religious folks ln the old days the clutches had asbestos in them and they didn't burn. good luck to all
There is only so much you can do. I've used the Alto Red Eagle 3/4 pack and the steels coned and lots of material was stripped from them.
Replaced them with Borg Warner clutches and they're still holding so far, even though for a while I was running lower on fluid than I should have been thanks to a POS Lokar dipstick which does not read accurately.
The High Energy material was designed FOR the 3-4 clutch in a 4L60/65E.
All the racing clutches are marketing IMO, not necessarily any better than OEM material.
Do you think the clutch manufacturer spent as much money you in R&D for a limited market clutch as GM did?
The stock Borg Warner High Energy clutches work very well. Raybestos GPZ line as well.
It states he uses Raybestos Blue's or Alto Reds with full thickness steels? These are not stock frictions, Though I don't think they are an "Upgrade"
I find the "Blue's" to feel funny on a 2-3 shift, Almost a "Slide Bump", If you have ever felt a Blue Friction.....The lining is a super hard resin like material.
However I don't have the education to verify the coefficient of friction vs other friction materials. I do know they "Hold/Soak" no ATF at all, So I don't see how they get cooled off after a shift other than depending solely on the steels as a heat sink.
Alto Reds, As stated work pretty well in anything but a 3-4 clutch, They just flat DO NOT hold up for this application in my experience, I think it is the heat that kills them from constant cycling of the 3-4 clutch in hard daily driving. Also they don't hold much fluid in the friction material compared to a High Energy Carbon-Graphite friction material.
I am a "Thicker Steel is better" guy, To me full thickness steels means .095" thick, I assume he is using .076"? But Friction surface area is also important for holding power.
It is all a balancing act when it comes to 3-4 clutches. The best balance I have found is with High Energy frictions.
As usual, I agree with clinebarger.
I did try Blue clutches in a Sonnax Smart Tech input drum and used 9 frictions with about .045" total wet clearance (.005 per friction). Shifted perfectly. I pulled the trans a year later to install a billet output shaft and checked the 3/4 clutch. The clearance had expanded to .110" !!
Granted I made daily WOT 4-2 downshifts which are particularly hard on the clutch.
Checking with Chuck @FLT, he thought that using the Transgo 3/4 "bleed orifice" instead of the stock check-ball capsule was my problem, but I'm not inclined to use Blue frictions again. Chuck recommended BW HiEnergy, but I used Raybestos GPZ since I already had plenty of them.
Having spoken to various pro builders, there is no consensus on whether thicker steels or frictions are better. With the Sonnax input drum, which should eliminate the coning problem, I'm inclined to prefer thicker frictions.
As clinebarger states, I also use the Alto Red only for the forward and overrun clutches, never the 3/4.
Going back to the original post, a stock rebuild kit for the 4L65E includes 7 frictions for the 3/4 clutch (and that is the only difference over a 4L60E rebuild kit). Once 4L65E kit I bought came with GPZ (HE) frictions and therefore was enough for a performance build, but the next kit had no-brand frictions.
Last edited by mrvedit; 10-02-2015 at 09:35 AM.
Reason: Clarified - changed "Transgo 3/4 bleed capsule" to "Transgo 3/4 bleed orifice".
Checking with Chuck @FLT, he thought that using the Transgo 3/4 "bleed capsule" instead of the stock check-ball was my problem, but I'm not inclined to use Blue frictions again. Chuck recommended BW HiEnergy, but I used Raybestos GPZ since I already had plenty of them.
Did you mean to say Sonnax 3-4 bleed capsule? I was not aware that TransGo made one.
Did you mean to say Sonnax 3-4 bleed capsule? I was not aware that TransGo made one.
No; I will edit my previous post to clarify.
The Transgo HD2 kit includes the Transgo "700/4L60E Clutch Spring Kit" and that kit includes a bleed "orifice" to replace the stock "check ball", supposedly for high RPM operation. Well Chuck @FLT said he doesn't agree with that Transgo mod, believes it causes unneeded 3/4 clutch wear and that the stock check-ball cartridge is better.
Note that the top-of-line Sonnax Smart-Tech input drum, clearly designed for performance and high RPM, also comes with the stock check-ball cartridge.
I blew through four transmission builds until my last builder put Z-Pak in 3/4 and upgraded all the other parts with what was pretty much available 5 or 6 years ago. The stock frictions completely gave out the first few times I went WOT on the original tranny. I bought a "built tranny and it didn't last a year. Same thing. I left the race track driving to a rest area in 2nd gear, where I had the car towed the rest of the way home.
I subsequently broke the planetary and another time the pump. There was nothing remarkable about this "Stage 3" build.
Finally, the last guy that built it upgraded all those parts to what was supposed to be the billet or hardened parts (at the time, a 5-pinion planetary, Beast, etc, etc and the Z-pak). That transmission lasted me until I had to park the car (about 2 years) because a main bearing wore to the point I had low oil pressure.
After going in the tranny (he let me watch), nothing was burnt nor broken except material was lost on the last Z-pak clutch and it was a bit concave. Line pressure (in the tune) was consistent throughout this whole series of tranny changes.
After losing two transmissions to stock clutches in 3/4 position, I just can't see going back to that. And I have a hard time trusting so-called builders who charge $1000 or $2000 more than stock to build a transmission and put a "Stage X" name on it. All you can do is go on their word unless you see it done or you open it up when it doesn't last.
If all you are doing is building the transmission with stock parts, then why the hell are you charging people thousands more and calling it a "Stage III" or "Stage V"? Then, your answer when it fails is "the line pressure killed it". If line pressure didn't kill the one before it, why did it kill yours?
if there is a pressure leak somewhere it will burn whatever clutch you throw in there from borgwarners to altos to zpaks..i once back then used a zpak on my truck lasted a good year when i pulled the trans for a refresh they were in ok condition but the clearance had went up alot..now i use a 7 or 8 borgwarner setup with kolene steels and have had goodluck with that
I have spoken to most of the sponsors and other pro builders here and can say that not a single one uses the Z-Pak anymore. It may have been the best option 10 years ago, but no longer is. Everyone now is using 7 or 8 friction setup with BW HiEnergy or Raybestos GPZ frictions. The desirable/expensive Sonnax input drum holds one more friction.
I even heard that Raybestos is trying to get people to stop ordering the Z-Pak, as they want to discontinue it, and have them use GPZ frictions instead.
It seems there are plenty of shady trans builders that try to sell a "Stage XX" at a premium price with little improvement over a stock trans.
However, if you look at any sponsor's website, e.g. FinishLine Transmissions (FLT), they state exactly what improvements they put in each additional stage. If you then price those improved parts, you will see that they are not even marking those parts up.
The sponsors (FLT, RPM, Performabuilt) spend a lot of labor time rebuilding each transmission carefully; typically be the owner and one or two mechanics. In contrast, the companies that can afford ads in car magazines, have more of a production line with less experienced mechanics and are unlikely to replace marginal parts.
For example, owner Chuck @FLT, has a lathe to machine the surfaces of each pump to better than new. As I documented in a another thread, Chuck replaces the planets on any transmission that had metal shavings as he knows he cannot clean the planets completely. You won't get that from any "local" trans builder.
As GMCSIERRA states, and I have harped on a zillion times, it is sloppy rebuilding that doesn't fully fix the leaks in the 3rd apply circuit which will burn out any 3/4 clutch. When you pay a low price for a 4L60E rebuild, the mechanic will not have spent the time to test for those leaks and/or replace all the parts that might leak.
A stock 4L60E typically lasts 100,000+ miles before a rebuild, and many then barely last a year after their first rebuild - reason is that the mechanic did not bother to find or fix various leaks. These are finicky transmissions to rebuild - you cannot take short cuts or rush; else they won't last long.
In short, the durability of a 4L60E rebuild depends much more on the mechanic than the type of frictions.
mrvedit is the 3rd apply circuit you are taking about the capsule with a check ball in it?
That is only one area where it can leak.
Perhaps a more common area is the looseness that develops between the input shaft and the input drum. Pulling out the input shaft, reinstalling it with plenty of Red Loctite and installing the Sonnax reinforcement ring will help eliminate leaks in this area.
And of course the obvious areas that are always addressed in a rebuild - the teflon rings on the input shaft, the seal on the 3/4 piston, and the seals on the servo 2nd gear piston.
I recall a pro builder saying he has seen one of the small bleed holes in the input drum blown out, likely because the line pressure was set too high (e.g. over 240 psi).
There might also be areas in the VB that could leak.
These areas should get extra attention; then also drill the 3rd apply hole in the separator plate to .100+ to help overcome any small leaks.
Most enthusiasts believe the marketing hype about aftermarket friction clutches in an automatic transmission.
Performance builders get to see actual results over time when we freshen up a unit we built previously, or we have a failure that affects the clutches (pump, etc).
My shop builds ~500 performance units a year. Mostly 4L80Es but we also do quite a few TH400s, a few Powerglides, 4L60Es, 200-4Rs, Dodge 47/48REs.
Here is a picture of Borg Warner High Energy clutches take out of a TH400 after 2+ years of 1250 RWHP use in a 3600 lb car with only 170 psi line pressure.
Here is why I avoid Alto Red at all cost:
The lining delaminated from this band within a month of street use. Notice it is not burnt at all. Alto didn't even offer to replace the band, much less pay for my labor to fix their failed part.
I've never had a failure of a Borg Warner clutch that was a fault of the clutch. We have used them at over 2000 HP.
The Z pak fails and makes it very difficult to disassemble the transmission. It is a High Energy type material.
I had my transmission rebuilt and did a parts lookup from my receipt.
I will not be using these clutches when I rebuild it but it looks like he used the alto red eagle for the 3-4 clutch pack which has already failed. Is this common, I have been reading that those clutches for the 3-4 is a very poor decision.
I will be using Borg Warner high energy this time around.
09-24-2015, 04:34 PM
Question about stock clutches in a 4L60E 
