What Trans for me.....TH400 w/GV or 4L80E
06-25-2006, 09:34 PM
#1
What Trans for me.....TH400 w/GV or 4L80E I'm trying to decide on combinations. Plan for the Camaro is an 408 NA motor. With a 4L60E would make around 500 rwhp 500 rwtq. I plan on spraying the combo later on in it's life. It will be more of a street car then track. Plan on driving it on a couple long drives, (ie Power Tour) and I'm in Texas so most drives are over 60 miles.
I already have a built 4L60E, but they become hit or miss at this power junction. Add some juice to the Mix, and it'll die for sure.
Been looking at 2 main idea's (3 really, just read below): TH400 w/a Gear Vendors or a Built 4L80E. Both have merits and differences. Just trying to figure out what route to take.
Pros: TH400 w/GV
Depedable
TH400 part easier to fit in the car then the 4L80E
Gear Vendor is super beefy. Stronger then the TH400
Less parastitic loss. (GV most efficient transmission in the world)
Have inbetween gears. (1st, 1st over, 2nd, 2nd over, 3rd, 3rd over (or OD))
Can do a TH400 to start and add the GV later if I don't have cash right now.
Cons: TH400 w/GV
Pricey. (GV is about 2200-2600 add-on. Replaces Tail-shaft)
How well does the GV fit in the F-Body?
AutoMatic shifting?
Who has done this swap?
Pros: 4L80E
Dependable (basically an OD version of the TH400)
Know it fits in the car.
OD and Lock-up in one package.
Can have it shift automatically
CONS: 4L80E
One package means I can't think about 2 purchases.
Less efficient then the TH400 w/GV
It's still a bitch to make it fit in the F-Body
Pricey.
At this point, I think I have the finances to afford either combo, if I can't really afford it, I'm going straight towards the TH400 to start and add the GV later. I have the cash for either, but I need to save some cash since I'll be getting out of the Army when I'm back and have to change lifestyles, not just a job or career.
I already have a built 4L60E, but they become hit or miss at this power junction. Add some juice to the Mix, and it'll die for sure.
Been looking at 2 main idea's (3 really, just read below): TH400 w/a Gear Vendors or a Built 4L80E. Both have merits and differences. Just trying to figure out what route to take.
Pros: TH400 w/GV
Depedable
TH400 part easier to fit in the car then the 4L80E
Gear Vendor is super beefy. Stronger then the TH400
Less parastitic loss. (GV most efficient transmission in the world)
Have inbetween gears. (1st, 1st over, 2nd, 2nd over, 3rd, 3rd over (or OD))
Can do a TH400 to start and add the GV later if I don't have cash right now.
Cons: TH400 w/GV
Pricey. (GV is about 2200-2600 add-on. Replaces Tail-shaft)
How well does the GV fit in the F-Body?
AutoMatic shifting?
Who has done this swap?
Pros: 4L80E
Dependable (basically an OD version of the TH400)
Know it fits in the car.
OD and Lock-up in one package.
Can have it shift automatically
CONS: 4L80E
One package means I can't think about 2 purchases.
Less efficient then the TH400 w/GV
It's still a bitch to make it fit in the F-Body
Pricey.
At this point, I think I have the finances to afford either combo, if I can't really afford it, I'm going straight towards the TH400 to start and add the GV later. I have the cash for either, but I need to save some cash since I'll be getting out of the Army when I'm back and have to change lifestyles, not just a job or career.
06-26-2006, 12:26 AM
#2
Just a few questions & comments:
I have this 80E programmed so it's tame around town (TPS<49%) and a beast when I step on it. Go with the 80E, you'll never regret it.
Jim
My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html
Originally Posted by Richiec77
I'm trying to decide on combinations... TH400 w/a Gear Vendors or a Built 4L80E. Both have merits and differences. Just trying to figure out what route to take.
Pros: TH400 w/GV
Depedable
TH400 part easier to fit in the car then the 4L80E
Gear Vendor is super beefy. Stronger then the TH400
Less parastitic loss. (GV most efficient transmission in the world) How do you know this?
Have inbetween gears. (1st, 1st over, 2nd, 2nd over, 3rd, 3rd over (or OD)) I always wondered who, with a strong motor, would have to shift this often? And then you add in the fact that kicking in the GV Overdrive is wayyy slower than shifting into 4th on an 80E...
Can do a TH400 to start and add the GV later if I don't have cash right now. True
Cons: TH400 w/GV
Pricey. (GV is about 2200-2600 add-on. Replaces Tail-shaft)
How well does the GV fit in the F-Body?
AutoMatic shifting?
Who has done this swap?
Pros: 4L80E
Dependable (basically an OD version of the TH400)
Know it fits in the car.
OD and Lock-up in one package.
Can have it shift automatically
Can program line pressure per RPM using TPS in every gear - 80E Yes
Can set upshift and downshift points per gear based on speed and TPS - 80E Yes
Can control lockup mph, quickness of lockup, relock delay time - 80E Yes
Can easily add a manual eShifter, or Shrifter - 80E Yes
Can save different profiles for the conditions (street tire, drag radial, slick etc.) - 80E Yes
CONS: 4L80E
One package means I can't think about 2 purchases. True
Less efficient then the TH400 w/GV Can you show that to be true?
It's still a bitch to make it fit in the F-Body Common, easy swap now, especially if you do it when you drop the motor
Pricey.Yes, it's pricey, but not a lot more than a comparably-built TH400 & GV without programmability and lockup. I got the entire Hughes built 4L80E Street/Strip, TCI T-Con controller, harness, tailshaft adapter for speedo cable, 2800 Lockup Stall Converter delivered to NorCal for $4800, and I could have gotten $800 back if I could have found a good core to send them.
At this point, I think I have the finances to afford either combo, if I can't really afford it, I'm going straight towards the TH400 to start and add the GV later. I have the cash for either, but I need to save some cash since I'll be getting out of the Army when I'm back and have to change lifestyles, not just a job or career.
Pros: TH400 w/GV
Depedable
TH400 part easier to fit in the car then the 4L80E
Gear Vendor is super beefy. Stronger then the TH400
Less parastitic loss. (GV most efficient transmission in the world) How do you know this?
Have inbetween gears. (1st, 1st over, 2nd, 2nd over, 3rd, 3rd over (or OD)) I always wondered who, with a strong motor, would have to shift this often? And then you add in the fact that kicking in the GV Overdrive is wayyy slower than shifting into 4th on an 80E...
Can do a TH400 to start and add the GV later if I don't have cash right now. True
Cons: TH400 w/GV
Pricey. (GV is about 2200-2600 add-on. Replaces Tail-shaft)
How well does the GV fit in the F-Body?
AutoMatic shifting?
Who has done this swap?
Pros: 4L80E
Dependable (basically an OD version of the TH400)
Know it fits in the car.
OD and Lock-up in one package.
Can have it shift automatically
Can program line pressure per RPM using TPS in every gear - 80E Yes
Can set upshift and downshift points per gear based on speed and TPS - 80E Yes
Can control lockup mph, quickness of lockup, relock delay time - 80E Yes
Can easily add a manual eShifter, or Shrifter - 80E Yes
Can save different profiles for the conditions (street tire, drag radial, slick etc.) - 80E Yes
CONS: 4L80E
One package means I can't think about 2 purchases. True
Less efficient then the TH400 w/GV Can you show that to be true?
It's still a bitch to make it fit in the F-Body Common, easy swap now, especially if you do it when you drop the motor
Pricey.Yes, it's pricey, but not a lot more than a comparably-built TH400 & GV without programmability and lockup. I got the entire Hughes built 4L80E Street/Strip, TCI T-Con controller, harness, tailshaft adapter for speedo cable, 2800 Lockup Stall Converter delivered to NorCal for $4800, and I could have gotten $800 back if I could have found a good core to send them.
At this point, I think I have the finances to afford either combo, if I can't really afford it, I'm going straight towards the TH400 to start and add the GV later. I have the cash for either, but I need to save some cash since I'll be getting out of the Army when I'm back and have to change lifestyles, not just a job or career.
Jim
My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html
Last edited by DeltaT; 06-26-2006 at 12:31 AM.
06-26-2006, 01:26 AM
#3
OK. Great points to add.
I'll get some better info on the GV's efficiency. It may be advertising I fell for...(bang head if I did.)
With the points you add, the only question I can think of asking myself is do I have the cash for the 4L80E? If I don't I'll get a TH400 and think about the benifits of adding the GV. Or just switch to a 4L80E then.
Those points help out alot. Thank you.
I'll get some better info on the GV's efficiency. It may be advertising I fell for...(bang head if I did.)
With the points you add, the only question I can think of asking myself is do I have the cash for the 4L80E? If I don't I'll get a TH400 and think about the benifits of adding the GV. Or just switch to a 4L80E then.
Those points help out alot. Thank you.
06-26-2006, 02:04 AM
#4
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He makes some great points.
But 4 grand!
I could not afford that, maybe if I had enough money to build the engine hes got it behind. And that tranny is HUGE. How much does a an 80E weigh?
You really can't go wrong either way and if you have the money the dynamic nature of the 80E could really come in handy.
Its just the buy in price that makes me choke.
But 4 grand!
I could not afford that, maybe if I had enough money to build the engine hes got it behind. And that tranny is HUGE. How much does a an 80E weigh? You really can't go wrong either way and if you have the money the dynamic nature of the 80E could really come in handy.
Its just the buy in price that makes me choke.
06-26-2006, 04:29 AM
#5
Yeah. Not cheap, but when you start making power, nothing is cheap anymore.
The power of the 408 NA with good heads hits that junction point were it's hard to say how long a 4L60E will live. Even a built one. They usually last a couple months, but after that it's been a crap shoot.
Has anyone really figured out what's up with that? Is it the weight, etc.........It's about as bad as no one knowing what the difference in weight is between an iron block and an AL block. I mean the real measurements.
The power of the 408 NA with good heads hits that junction point were it's hard to say how long a 4L60E will live. Even a built one. They usually last a couple months, but after that it's been a crap shoot.
Has anyone really figured out what's up with that? Is it the weight, etc.........It's about as bad as no one knowing what the difference in weight is between an iron block and an AL block. I mean the real measurements.
06-27-2006, 12:31 AM
#6
From a similar discussion I posted on:
A built 80E can handle 1000HP. You couldn't get near that with any reliability with a 60E, no matter how built. Once you get to the true 700HP mark, there are 2 groups of people: Those that have a 80E and those that regret not having one. Of course there are exceptions, but that seems to be the rule.
Between different forums, I see 2-4 guys per week that break their 60E somehow, even if they've already put some money into it. 3/4 of them moan and groan and then ask about the price of a good 80E, and STILL go ahead and rebuild their 60E, which only pushes out their disappointment another 6-8 months, if they are running some real power.
If you ask them how much the 2 or 3 60E's cost them total, you get a lot of embarassed silence.
****, if you have $30K in to the car, what's another $5K for a deadnutz reliable tranny?
I went straight to a Hughes built Street/Strip 80E behind my blown/nitrous 383, and I am very happy. The first time I added nitrous to my old 4L60/ZZ3 combo, I lost the 2-3 shift. Had to pull the tranny and have $600 worth of stuff added, but he screwed it up, so I had to pull it again for him to fix. 2 grand at that point would have been worth it just to have it in and reliable, but hey, 20/20 hindsight. Do it right the first time, like the Germans "Overbuild, understress."
Jim
My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html
A built 80E can handle 1000HP. You couldn't get near that with any reliability with a 60E, no matter how built. Once you get to the true 700HP mark, there are 2 groups of people: Those that have a 80E and those that regret not having one. Of course there are exceptions, but that seems to be the rule.
Between different forums, I see 2-4 guys per week that break their 60E somehow, even if they've already put some money into it. 3/4 of them moan and groan and then ask about the price of a good 80E, and STILL go ahead and rebuild their 60E, which only pushes out their disappointment another 6-8 months, if they are running some real power.
If you ask them how much the 2 or 3 60E's cost them total, you get a lot of embarassed silence.
****, if you have $30K in to the car, what's another $5K for a deadnutz reliable tranny?
I went straight to a Hughes built Street/Strip 80E behind my blown/nitrous 383, and I am very happy. The first time I added nitrous to my old 4L60/ZZ3 combo, I lost the 2-3 shift. Had to pull the tranny and have $600 worth of stuff added, but he screwed it up, so I had to pull it again for him to fix. 2 grand at that point would have been worth it just to have it in and reliable, but hey, 20/20 hindsight. Do it right the first time, like the Germans "Overbuild, understress."
Jim
My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html
06-27-2006, 02:31 AM
#7
Also think about it like this revtime:
How much does a 408 NA take to get off the ground right?
You may figure. Hey. It's 4K for the shortblock. I can handle that much. Then you start looking into the supporting mods to be reliable. It starts adding up quicker and quicker. If you took a decint 346 H/C car and put a 408 in it, you may be alright, but if you went the right way to start, the money is already spent and can easily add up to 10K quick. More like 15-20K quick.
Figure: New rear-end:$2K if you get a sweeeet deal
Fuel system: Atleast injectors and fuel pump. More like rails, regulator, lines, fittings....
And on and on. 4-5K for a reliable transmission is big, but it's a major player. Just like the 4K for the 408 shortblock. It still needs heads, fuel, intake, cam, tune...........and on and on.
Like I said. Once you start making real power, it gets expensive.
How much does a 408 NA take to get off the ground right?
You may figure. Hey. It's 4K for the shortblock. I can handle that much. Then you start looking into the supporting mods to be reliable. It starts adding up quicker and quicker. If you took a decint 346 H/C car and put a 408 in it, you may be alright, but if you went the right way to start, the money is already spent and can easily add up to 10K quick. More like 15-20K quick.
Figure: New rear-end:$2K if you get a sweeeet deal
Fuel system: Atleast injectors and fuel pump. More like rails, regulator, lines, fittings....
And on and on. 4-5K for a reliable transmission is big, but it's a major player. Just like the 4K for the 408 shortblock. It still needs heads, fuel, intake, cam, tune...........and on and on.
Like I said. Once you start making real power, it gets expensive.
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06-27-2006, 08:00 PM
#8
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The arguement is a convincing one and IF I were to build a 700 horsepower daily driver then by all means I would consider it but really how many people build those?
If your car makes 700 horsepower I doubt you drive it everday.
I don't make 700 horsepower but hope to come close with the nitrous and a forged bottom end 355 (direct port, big shot) I put 5000 miles a year (if I am damn lucky) on my car and can live quite happily with my Rossler TH400 without OD.
I know I sound like a dick but I don,t mean too. I am a go fast on the cheap kinda guy and could never justify the 4k for a tranny. I have half that in my entire TH400 swap and the things bulletproof.
Of course there aint many alternatives if you want OD so it comes down to what you can live with.
If your car makes 700 horsepower I doubt you drive it everday.
I don't make 700 horsepower but hope to come close with the nitrous and a forged bottom end 355 (direct port, big shot) I put 5000 miles a year (if I am damn lucky) on my car and can live quite happily with my Rossler TH400 without OD.
I know I sound like a dick but I don,t mean too. I am a go fast on the cheap kinda guy and could never justify the 4k for a tranny. I have half that in my entire TH400 swap and the things bulletproof.
Of course there aint many alternatives if you want OD so it comes down to what you can live with.
07-05-2006, 09:41 PM
#10
With the OD, the difference in MPG alone starts to pay back the high price of the tranny as soon as you start driving it.
Even 5000 miles a year - with premium over $3.30/gal if you can bump up your mileage by 3mpg (very easy) you could save $200, and that's a conservative number. Plus more topend mph for the street.
Jim
Even 5000 miles a year - with premium over $3.30/gal if you can bump up your mileage by 3mpg (very easy) you could save $200, and that's a conservative number. Plus more topend mph for the street.
Jim
07-07-2006, 05:53 PM
#13
Originally Posted by DeltaT
With the OD, the difference in MPG alone starts to pay back the high price of the tranny as soon as you start driving it.
Even 5000 miles a year - with premium over $3.30/gal if you can bump up your mileage by 3mpg (very easy) you could save $200, and that's a conservative number. Plus more topend mph for the street.
Jim
Even 5000 miles a year - with premium over $3.30/gal if you can bump up your mileage by 3mpg (very easy) you could save $200, and that's a conservative number. Plus more topend mph for the street.
Jim
