BubaGumpShrimp

iTrader: (1)

Ok here is the deal. My trans took a dump and i ordered a new trans and a new converter. I had them both installed. The converter never locked(i had prior tuning for my old converter, i just upgraded the old one to a new one with a better clutch). Well this converter was out of balance and had a bad vibration with it also. I got a new replacement converter from them and put it in. Vibration is all gone drive smooth but still no lock up. I need ideas as to what it could be and i need to rule out things like tuning or if i actually got another bad converter.

Ok during the install of the new converter, i checked the o-ring on the input shaft and it was fine so i ruled that out of the equasion.

As for tuning i have no codes,there is no torque management,misfire detection has been set to check min temp 141 and max to 142 basically making the misfire detection inoperable. When i did this the old converter worked just fine. So now im stumped

BubaGumpShrimp

iTrader: (1)

oh if it means anything i have ls1 edit for tuning and auto tap for scanning, both of which suck and might just get hp tuners for real time changes and scanning.

Gilbert@Ace Racing

Well think of it like this... the original converter worked with the existing tune, correct? And if so then all things being equal you should see a command for lock up at some point.

I see you posting here very often and know you to be fairly proficient with these cars. Take your laptop and set it up to record the converter events... record TPS, VSS, Converter enable and disable pids at the very least. In lieu of not being able to do that yourself, can you have a shop drive it and watch for the lock up command?

It is imperative that we understand whther or not it is being commanded.

g

BubaGumpShrimp

iTrader: (1)

yea frank from performabuilt told me how to make an led test light to see if the computer is commanding lock up. Just figured i would ask and get ideas as to what to check or if i missed something in the tune.

Gilbert@Ace Racing

Man I would think that if you can tune the damned thing you could determine if it is being commanded without going to the trouble of building a test light.

What are the differences between the converters?

What did you change in you tune?

g

BubaGumpShrimp

iTrader: (1)

yea i should be able to tell if its commanded but auto tap sucks and doesnt work all the time, guess since i got it when it first came out and some pids just dont work at all. Hence me wanting to just dump the thing and get hptuners since its all in one. Ls1 edits scanner sucks too.

As for the converter my original one was a 3,800 1.7 stall(havent updated my sign since it still says new fuddle but had it for 2 years). When i got the new trans i got a new converter since i didnt like the clutch in the old one, new converter was a 4,000 2.4str which had a bad vibration (could have been the flexplate also as when then installed it they left out a bolt on the converter and it made noise) in any event i got a new converter which is a 3,800 1.7 and a new flexplate and watched them put it in and told them how to do it. Thats when i checked the oring to see if they screwed it up the first time they put the converter in and it was fine. New converter went in as well as a tci flexplate and the vibration went away but this converter as well as the one it replaced never locked.

As far as tune i didnt change anything from what i had changed before(see above post as to what i changed) So this converter i have in there now is the same stall and str as the one i originally had in there except for the better clutch. So tuning shouldnt really need to be changed unless i need to change some things since i got a new trans.

Gilbert@Ace Racing

Ok that's good info. I feel your pain.

I have learned tuning through EFI Live. It is good. If you spend any more money on tuning software... go big or stay on the porch! Seriously though. it's times like this that the better software platforms pay for themselves.

And, I would encourage you to not change a thing in the tune and focus on determining if it is being commanded.

However,,, if you are hellbent on doing something with the tools you have right now, lol... then take the 3rd gear lock up out of the picture entirely. Move 4th gear lock up to a mph and TPS that look someting like this....

Converter clutch will apply if MPH = or > 55 mph

TPS is below 25%

If it is capable of locking up, it will and you will feel it at that mph as the rpm's will be high enough for you to observe a firm engagement.

Lemme know how this progresses.... I'll be in and out all night, weather sucks, I have a fire going a couple of beers left and a big *** pot of pinto beans on the stove!

g

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

No lockup particulary with a high stall converter, at normal engine temps and cruising at highway speeds should set a code for excessive converter slip PO1870 which its my understanding he does not have any codes being set, So I would say its simply not being comanded. This is likley going to be some tuning issue however. Check ENG SEN 20 amp fuse in under hood fuse box. Also potentially a bad TCC side of the brake light switch as far as a hard failures should be looked at as well. And also check for power at that fuse with engine running as it is fed by a relay.

Gilbert@Ace Racing

While it is important to understand the number of potential causes for a given condition, I prefer to not point out all of the potential causes of a given issue when working with someone long distance. I think it only serves as "noise" that clouds ones thinking. My recommendation here is to focus on whether or not the command is being given Bubba!

In this case we have like and kind components and no apparent software changes. We do not know what reporting features have been terminated. Therefore we cannot assume it should be doing any reporting until proven otherwise IMHO.

I dunno Frank, I think it's early to be saying that myself. I do not share your confidence personally.

g

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

My call is based on the fact hes my customer and I have been helping him through a slew of bad luck 2 bad installs/ severe vibration with first converter (not ours) after installs. But I do agree and have told him the first thing is to determine absolutley wether the converter is or is not being commanded to lockup . I have given him a couple full proof test for that he will be performing. I only mentioned the other stuff because they are things he could check real quick This eve before he went out for the evening. And so the information would be available if anyone else was searching for answers to a similar issue. But we do concur on what needs to be determined first. I will also agree that somone could possibly have deleted the test for the code PO1870 Though the only time I could see any reason to do that is if running a non lockup converter or hiding a problem with converter clutch slip. But Ya ever know

Gilbert@Ace Racing

Gosh, I did not know it's been in and out a few times. Dang the luck.

Yep we agree, there needs to be some clarity about what is taking place and maybe between the fool proof tests and the tuning suggestions the problem can be found sooner rather than later.

Good Luck guys.

g

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

Yes he definatley has not had the best string of luck with this endevor and As I understand it was even further exasperated when his girl freinds car the one they were driving dies at the same time so the Camaro had to be driven as a way around while vibrating while the other car was being fixed, Now he did mention something and You may know more than me. aparently they messed up something with the exhaust and weilded a hanger now the exhaust rattles badly from my understanding , Could the PCM hear and think and a knock/ miss or detonation and disable lockup on that premise?

Gilbert@Ace Racing

In order to understand why it could happen, one needs to understand why it does happen all the time. Torque Converter lock-up is inhibited when engine detonation is evident because the converter clutch could easily be damaged. In addition, under certain driving conditions Torque Converter lock-up could contribute to the engine detonation condition. So, for the sake of diagnosing the condition of the new combination not locking up, it makes perfect sense to inhibit detonation detection. Remember, for this exercize we could care less if it is actually detonating or not. The test will be allowed to run again once the condition is solved.

Could spark knock / detonation be the case here? Sure it could. But I doubt it seriously, based on the O/P's comments I quoted. Sometimes Tuning boils down to being smarter than what you are fooling with. In this case, the Detonation detection was simply "turned off" by creating a set of operating parameters that only allows the PCM to look for detonation for a very, very short period of time. Is it the best way or the smartest way to defeat the spark knock / detonation detection system? I cannot say because I am not an Engine Tuner nor am I interested in becoming an Engine Tuner.

But look, it is pretty simple to me. If it was working before, it oughta work now. What has changed since it was working? The transmission and all of its electronics and the torque converter have been changed. The converter is similar to the one that came out, not the same but similar in the fact that it is not stock and is a high stall converter. And as far as I know everything else is the same.

Therefore, the one single place that testing must begin is to find out if converter clutch lock up is being commanded.... everything else is just noise and static without clarity and focus on the problem. If it is being commanded then there are a completely different set of tests and observations that must be made. If it is not being commanded then that requires it's own set of tests and observations.

g

FLT

iTrader: (1)

Could always mechanically make the converter lock. It is pretty simple to do. Remove the lock up solenoid from the pump. Remove the filter in the solenoid. Install a check ball in the snout of the solenoid. Reinstall the solenoid and fill back up with oil. With the wheels in the air place the vehicle in drive with the brakes applied. If the motor tries to die or stumbles like a stick shift when coming to a stop when the clutch is not pushed in. The problem is not in the trans. If it makes absolutely no difference then the problem is either in the trans or the converter. Possible problem with trans would be a pump issue. Such as cross leaks in the pump or a plugged orifice for signal oil. This is a fool proof test to verify if the converter and the pump are capable of making the TCC function. Just an idea. Vince

Gilbert@Ace Racing

Well I gotta tell you Vince I just hate to see guys working on their new transmissions, that is why I did not suggest invasive tests just yet. Certainly by preventing the fluid from exhausting it would activate the hydraulic circuit.

I still think a guy shouldn't be working inside his new tranny though.

g

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

I agree that he shouldnt be inside the trans particulary since lockup was verifed during the running test at the shop before it left. Thats why The test I have given are simple and non invasive to determine the issue one step at a time. His tuning software and scanner do not work well this he has allready said so its not real helpfull . So I gave him the LED TEST two wires and spike probe which will absolutly tell him if it commanded or not. I always start with the simplest test possible normally I would want to verify with the tuning software first but he does not have live capabilites he can from my understanding of what he explained only change parameters then upload and see what happens. And his scanner does not have the ability to determine lockup or no. So based on that and barring having him spend money perhaps unnessesarily and noting that he has good technical capabilites The LED test makes the most sense right now.
And guys this was and is intended to be a technical discussion on possible ways to help him track down and solve the issue with as few steps as possible. He does not need us throwing pot shots at each other, Which it would seem is the norm whenever I become involved in a technical discussion with either of you and its ridiculous. Im not sure why that is since to date I have never done that in any discussions with or towards you. Lets keep this tech and cool it with the sly shots ok , Thanks and sorry Bubba for the hijack part of this post. You have had more than your fair share of problems with the installers and first converter vibrating exhaust damaged removing and installing twice with the first converter and now again to put in this one and solve the vibration issue. Now everythings working great except no lockup.
Frank at PerformaBuilt

FLT

iTrader: (1)

I would have to agree Gil. Just figured I would offer up another test to help figure out if this is vehicle related or transmission/converter related. Have to rule out one or the other. Frank just a heads up I did not throw a pot shot at you but added advise in a technical discussion. Sorry if it looked otherwise but this is a tech forum. Vince

Gilbert@Ace Racing

Dang Frank... ease up dude. No reason to be defensive, this guy has a real problem here and asked a real question which led to a real discussion. No harm, no foul.

Just trying to help out. Nothing more nothing less.

g

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

Thats fine guys maybe I took something wrong , Youknow how words can play. Real technical discussion is always welcome. My full time job is to help my customers and anyone else that ask and constructive informaton is allways welcome

BubaGumpShrimp

iTrader: (1)

i basically made the post to get other ideas as to what it could be other than the things i have looked at already. I did have bad install problems (kid i knew that happened to work at the place i took it to begged to do the job) The kid did a bad install,left out bolts and such. They pulled him off the job and had the a-tech pull it out and re install it. I get it back and the thing vibrates (shakes my steering wheel) at certain rpms. Not excessively bad(drivable) but definately not right. Didnt know if they bent the flexplate (since the stupid kid left out one of the converter bolts) or the converter was just missbalanced. Well the new replacement converter went in and the vibration is completely gone, drive smooth as **** except for the no lock up, didnt even try to lock at all with either converter. I did inspect the front shaft o-ring for rips but it was totally fine,i even supervised (yes i was in the shop watching and telling them what to do,though the a-tech did know what to do) the install and was put in right this time as well as my torque arm (they installed it upside down and left of an exhaust hanger) so i have seen better days and think i'll be doing work on my car for now on.