youguessit

Ok so heres the deal. I had my tranny built and it keeps burning up the 3rd and forth clutches... first, second, and reverse is fine and no unusual noises... I broke my flywheel... too much power hehe. The guy who built it said it could be that something is cracked and leaking pressure since the tranny is more prone to burning up 3rd and 4th gear clutches with the line pressure lowered. My question is what could this be? My car is a 2002 camaro z28 with a 4l60e of cource.

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

There are many many possibilites. I would not know where to begin. But it souldnt burn up the 3-4 clutches repeatedly What kinda power are you making?

Gilbert@Ace Racing

It could be that it needs a better build. No offense to your builder intended.

But, right now.... today... at my shop I have no less than 3 "built" transmissions that failed. 2 of them cooked the 3/4 clutches. The 3rd one has not come apart yet, but is out of the car because it does not have 3rd gear.

I tell you this because there is much, much more to building one of these units than installing good parts. Some builders do not believe in sleeving the Input Drum because they have not seen problems with the drum themselves. That's a very bad idea. We took one unit apart this week that had a Red Eagle 9 element 3/4 clutch pack apart yesterday... it had almost 1/4" clearance when we got to it! It should not have more than .040 - .060 clearance after being ran for only 4,000 miles or so.

Not a shot at anyone who says they can build these... no doubt they have game for Automatics. But... if your builder has not initiated a Research and Development program, one that spanned months and months with a dedicated test vehicle making real horsepower then he has not experienced all of the failures associated with one of these 4L60E's.

Anyone that knows me knows that I am a pretty humble guy when it comes to Racing Transmissions. I had my fair share of failures for more than a year during our R&D program. But, we are a much better company for having gone through the process.

I must say that keeping a 3/4 clutch pack alive takes skill and a very keen understanding of the clutchpack dynamics and the hydraulic circuits associated with it.

How much power are you putting down? Afterall, you may not have the right transmission for the job.

g

PBA

I must say that keeping a 3/4 clutch pack alive takes skill and a very keen understanding of the clutchpack dynamics and the hydraulic circuits associated with it. I agree.... Ratchthed, have you ever talked to the people in the tech dept at Raybestos on the "Z-PAK"? I have, but I would like to hear your thoughts on this if you have? If not, what do you think of the claim that the "z-pak" prevents coning?

james562

iTrader: (35)

Do you have a rough estimate of how many 4L60's you've built/sold? 50-60? 100+?200+?

Gilbert@Ace Racing

Sorry for the highjack dude!



I did speak to one of their Tech guys a few years ago. But, I was not impressed. In this particular application I have not once installed a Z-pack and had it live for any length of time in a racing application. Each and every time the components came out coned. Not one clutch pack lived longer than 10 passes in a 550 FWHP application running low 7.xx's in the 1/8 mile. Now, I will qualify that statement with the fact that since we learned how to manage the hydraulics differently, better than we were, I have not gone back to a Z-Pack. But, keep in mind that Raybestos does not make one specific recommendation for mods to the hydraulic circuitry. Therefore I take it at face value that those parts are supposed to live successfully with a relatively stock hydraulic circuit.

The design logic escapes me. How can one expect to have wafer thin clutches to survive a 6,000 - 7,000 rpm shift at high torque loads in a car as heavy as an F-Body or GTO? I have my suspicions that this clutch was redesigned for the 4L60E to provide an answer to ALTO's Red Eagle stack... but hey I could be wrong. I know it first evolved in FWD applications. At the end of the day.... ACE Racing Transmissions will not again use a Raybestos Z-Pack in a High Performance 4L60E.

Call me some time Dana... I wouldn't mind comparing notes one bit. Like many high end Builders I enjoy relationships with shops around the country.

Do you have a rough estimate of how many 4L60's you've built/sold? 50-60? 100+?200+?

James562,

I noticed you highlighted the number of "built" units here at the shop now that have failed. Not sure why, but it is important to say they were not built here. We were asked to take them in and repair them, two of them are from out of state.

As far as how many we have built here... We began our 4L60E R&D program in earnest in conjunction with Xtreme Horsepower, our next door neighbors back in the Spring of 2006. We spent more than $10.000.00 in parts and labor... mostly parts figured at cost. That's alot of cooked and grenaded transmissions.

After I had several fast cars running for 3 months without one phone call I decided to come on here as a Sponsor. That was last Summer. Since then I would estimate we have built some 40 - 50 High Performance 4L60E's.

Without one coming back for repairs. That's a bold statement and I know it. Our day is coming! But, because we do not build for inventory, because we do not build subassemblies and put them on a rack for future assembly we can hold a very high standard here at this shop. We never set out to be the highest volume shop in the land.

We set out to build some bad *** Racing Transmissions for some good folks. We aren't the cheapest, we aren't the most expensive either. As a matter of fact I set my prices at the Industry average. I poll at least 5 shops with good reputations at least every 3 months in order to make sure our prices are set at the Industry Average. And we do not cut one corner, do not leave out one part or one process because of price. If I cut someone a good deal, they get the same unit anyone else would. Period.

I believe in relationships. Not the "point of sale" relationships many shops thrive on by promoting high volume sales tactics. Rather, I am about long term relationships.

We aren't going anywhere soon and you bet, I will be glad to talk about the units that come back broken... I don't have any reason to not talk about them. That's how we get better.

g

FLT

iTrader: (1)

part2
They still cone. I have removed a few that the clutch material still looked good but were starting to cone. I even tested this clutch before it was released and I felt that there were issues using it in a Hp application. The rep told me they were designed for towing or hd use not racing. I have a set right now at the shop that came out of a new unit that was tested and shipped to the customer. I was asked to take a look at it to see if the trans would be ok to install as he had an issue with an earlier build. I did test the trans on our dyno to see how it worked. Basically looking at what the pressures were doing and how the unit reacted. I let the customer know what was found and went from there. Then fully disassembled it and converted it to one of our level 4 builds. The zpack had signs of the friction wearing on the first couple clutches and the last couple clutches with less than a couple hours of testing. If you look closely at the oil grooves in the clutches you could see the wear. That alone to me did not look good. The clutch pack was adjusted from it's original setup by the use of a thicker pressure plate and had a clutch clearance of about .035 when I checked it. I have seen other z packs that were not modified like this but had similar results. I know that all frictions will wear but to me the metal of the pack is just to thin. I believe that thinner steels do not take to heat well and that is the first place that a clutch pack will start to cone. With high rpm shifts in third gear heat gets generated very quickly. I do not believe that raybestos designed this clutch to shift a 6000-7000 rpm. Just my review but what do I know. Vince


To the original poster as mentioned many things can cause a failure in this circuit. I would like to know more about your car and it's power. We have had great success with our units and if you are having repeated failures, try another builder. Just my opinion. Good luck. Vince

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

Again. We on the other hand have had good luckwith them , Our three fastest cars are running them in our level 2 and all three have been out for nearly a year and have had no issues to date, These are regularly run at the track and daily driven in each case, We have many more running them also as the level 2 is our most popular unit.
I have torn units down where there were some signs of coning however further investigation lead to other conclusons about the cause and these causes would have cause burning or coning in any clutch set, Now for a while when the Zpack was not available we used the alto reds with the koleen steels and we did notice and increase of issues with these and I since have decided we will not be using those again.
Honestly I do think however in many cases the hydraulics of the apply is far more important as mentioned than the actual clutch set. While we do use the z pack in our level 2 we also use the High enegry set in the level 1 and have had great success with it even though several people have used these and far exceeded rated power which of course is just a general guide line anyway.
In the level 3 we use the The blue plate frictions with the stock steels 8 of them and have had good sucess with them also.
As for how many units we have out there I cant say exactly but countiing the total sales in the past 11 months several hundred which is as far back As I have records since in the begining I just let the office do it but at any rate quite a few.
As for failures overall numbers have been quite low IMO considerig the aplication these are used in . Before we started testing then before shipment we did indeed have more issues but overall since we began testing the units in a car which has been since august we have seen failure rates in the 5 percent range mostly in the form of failed planets stripped in the center splines during launch this has been equal between the 4 and 5 pinion sets . We have seen a few drums give way at the snap ring for the 3-4 but not enough to be considered a major issue though we are presently working on and upgrade to reduce this risk. We have never seen either of the bands we use fail period. We have two Striped centers in the input drum one in a large truck it also twisted the input shaft about 90 degrees and the other in a not particulary fast car. And a few that well honestly didnt make sense but happened.
When we have any failure like mentioned earlier we study it in fact thats my job and the majority of the time is why I end up at the shop, Is to study what happened , Why and what could we possibly do to avoid it. And make recomendations on it.
Fact is we have made multiple changes in the levels 2 and 3 since we started. Just small additions or upgrades to prevent issues. Like any company fact is failure cost us money as they do the customer neither situation is acceptable and we make every move we can to avoid them for both reasons. I also have used many of the parts and mods used by our competiton and some I liked and some I didnt, but many times since it seems we all build units that do infact live in very high HP applications. I think maybe it comes down to the old saying "There are many ways to skin a cat" By the way I am cat lover lol. Anyway it was interesting reading the tech from everyone and sorry also for the hijack Perhaps sometime there should be a thread made so we all can compare notes in a civilized manor. I would enjoy that. maybe a sticky of trans builders opinions of various products and mods
Again sorry for the HIjack OP and if you need anyting feel free to give me or any of the sponsors a yell all will be happy to asist you in any way we can.

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

[B]]Now for the OP the most comon things I have seen for repeated 3-4 clutch failure,
1-To much clearance or not enough during the build I like around .025

2-Wear inside the pump stator where the teflon rings ride, This is missed by builders more than you might think I have noted in the last 20+ years I have been doing these. And a tiny amount of wear is alot if it not absolutly perfectly smooth in there the stator must be replaced.

3-BAND-3/4 clutch overlap not such a problem with the 4L60E but was with the 700r4 when people plugged the large feed for the 3rd accum with corvette and larger servos.

4-Low line presure, The 3-4 clutch is far more susceptable to this simply because of its lower friction area. Low line can be caused by many things trans and engine electronics related, (Dirty maff, out of range TPS) are two comon causes I have seen with the engine part,

5-High line presure this is indicated when the clearance are set correctly as I mentioed about and you see repeated breaking out of the drum and or snap ring at the 3-4 clutch.

5-leaking or restricted 3rd gear encapsulated check ball in the case can also lead to issues of repeated failure and many times this is not only not replaced but not even checked durig a build.

6-Centrifical apply this happens at very high RPM above 6500 RPM when neither the factury AUX helper springs nor the Transgo stiffer replacement springs are used to help prevent this. What happens is the fluild thats trapped in the 3-4 clutch piston is pressed against the walls like a centrifuge and climb up and partially applies the 3-4 clutch piston the same force that keeps water in a bucket when you swing it around over your head, But this is generally only and issue with a car that spends exstended time in 1st and second at very high RPM.7- Of course Damaged 3-4 piston seals particularly the oring that goes around the center inside the input drum you would be amazed how many times builders neglect this one.

Just A few ideas for you , But as mentioned you may want to consider another builder. And there is the off chance there is some issue with the case to be considered though not comon over the years I have run into a few where no matter what you did smethng would not work right, Move all the parts directly into another case and all be fine, Yet even studying the case with a magifying glass could find no reason.

Figured since I too Hijacked your thread I should at least give you some possibilites to consider . Hope they help [/B][/B]

youguessit

Im running about 420 to 430 flywheel. I talked to the guy in charge and he's going to check some stuff out so ill keep yall posted at what eventually happens. Oh also they said they pressure check everything before it leaves the shop and he thinks its something wierd like it leaks when its hot and not when its cool. He said something must have a tiny crack of some sort. Well he said he take care of it so... im waitin.

FLT

iTrader: (1)

You might want to suggest that the shop get a pressure gauge on this unit next time around. Sounds like there is a pressure issue with this trans or an issue with the vehicle controlling the pressure. You should not be having this many problems for the power your car puts out. Vince

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

I would concur I am thinking presure issue or leak some where, Keep us posted

Gilbert@Ace Racing

This is one of the very reasons we like to install and run our units in the cars they are going to run in. I go to great pains to not charge our customers for the R&R of any performance unit we build. We are able to make sure the vehicles' PCM cannot interfere with Line Pressure.

I am not sold on the fact that it is a line pressure issue personally. Glad to see you r Builder being pro active here. If you would like to discuss some options you may not be aware of call me at the shop Monday.

Good Luck either way.

g

james562

iTrader: (35)

Gilbert, I highlighted the #3 because I found that to be an exceptional number... Now that I have seen that you have yet to have a built 4l60 fail on you only reassures my confidence in your shop.

On a side note... I had been following your posts and guidence for years now.. You are considered as one of the 4L60E Gurus in my book

Too bad you won't consider relocating to Los Angeles CA anytime soon

Guess I'm stuck with shippin transmissions back and forth...

Gilbert@Ace Racing

Wow. Thanks for the accolades. We try really hard every day.

We too think those are exceptional numbers.... but they are not rare in the industry. There really are companies out there that actually give a damn about what they put their name on. We are only one of them. And for every one of those shops there are 2 shops who could care less what goes out the door, as long as the revenue is coming in and the warranty work is getting covered. It is the law of averages at play in those companies.

Then there are the shops that really do think they have done all they can do, there is nothing else to do because that's the way it's done... they do not improve, they don't push the envelope.

Relocate to LA? Temporarily; sure dude, let's see... maybe a plane ticket a room at the local Ramada or Holiday Inn, whichever has the hottest BarMaid ! And then all I need is a quiet place for a day or two that has a few benches, a lifetime of tools, a decent shop rat for me to ridicule from time to time, a big pile of parts and a ride back to the airport after all the dust settles!

Sure I'm in!

Let me know what I can do for you.

g

youguessit

He tested it with pressure gauges.... all passed. He suggested maybe a crack somewhere that only leakes under higher rpms... He is going to x-ray the thing. Wow. He told me he has never had so much trouble with a street transmission. Well ill keep yall posted when he tells me whats up.

youguessit

Oh yeah and what yall think on a 22-2500 stall, how much faster will it make me?(in the quarter)

3stgstocker

iTrader: (18)

what kind of power r u guys talking bout cause i cant keep 1 in my car n its not a race car but its fast for what it is? and what kind of et r they running? i dont want to tell my mods or times to the world but i do want a trans that will last! WOULD ANY OF YALL SPONSORS LIKE TO GIVE ME 1 AND LET ME SEE IF THEY R ANYGOOD IF THEY R PROMISE U ID HAVE THEM RUNNING OUT UR DOOR! EVERYBODY HERE IS TIRED OF MESSING WITH THEM AND GOIN 2 T 350 OR GLIDES BUT I WANT TO DRIVE MY CAR! IVE GOT 6 FBODIES I WORK ON FOR GOOD BUDDIES N 5 OF THEM IS SITTING N YARD WITH BUILT BROKE TRANS! I WOULD PUT A STICKER AS BIG AS THE BACK WINDOW IF SOMEBODY CAN PROVE ME WRONG. PM ME SPONSORS IF INTERESTED