johnfin

Thinking about trading straight across my 2004 Gto, Pristine 84K miles for a 2002 35th anniversary camaro convert., same milage. Blue book is about the same. GTO guyes says I am getting screwed, but they are GTO guys. Camaro is a chevy and parts are easy to get. GTO is a aussy holden and parts are hard to get. The Camaro is not in that great of condition, paint is lifting. Any thoughts.

King Nothing

iTrader: (9)

Do it. You've listed all the reasons I sold my GTO.

LE35TH

Make sure its a real 35th anniversary first. Will have z4c listed in the RPO codes.

If it was me I wouldn't trade my pristine 84k GTO for a camaro that isn't in that great of condition. Especially if it will need a paint job.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I would definitely want to get out of the GTO, too many issues as they age plus the parts availability concerns you've mentioned above. Nothing with 84k miles is actually "pristine", but it sounds like your GTO is in much better shape than this Camaro. So I would pass on that Camaro and hold out for a better one, and/or just sell your GTO separately.

The 35th LE package is just cosmetic so, unless you're specifically seeking out that appearance, I'd avoid the price premium associated with those and look for a regular SS or even Z28 - you'll get better condition for your money with those.

liketowork

iTrader: (4)

Sell your GTO and buy a Camaro if that's what you want. Bluebook doesn't mean anything to most the people looking for a GTO. A Camaro can be head cheaper.

blackbyrd

iTrader: (14)

definantly wouldnt trade for that particular car as it seems like a step backwards maybe?

if you want out of the GTO id sell it separately, hold onto the money and start shopping for what you really want.

Me personally I really enjoy mine despite the parts issues, and I dont think I would be happy taking that step into a 4th gen fbody cant speak to the Camaro as much but the firebird interior feels pretty dated by comparison but those are just my opinions.

johnfin

Most of the converts, especially on epay, are $15k+. I could never get that for my gto. Over time which will be worth more?

blackbyrd

iTrader: (14)

probably not a game you want to play as there is no guarantee they will ever become collectible or high demand like 1st gen camaros did where at one point there were bare metal chassis missing front clips for 8k and were selling. 2nd gens are starting to gain some popularity but still arent "that" desirable. I just dont think modern sports cars will have that same appeal down the road.

That said the GTO stands a better chance in my eyes because of the limited production. in its 3 years there were only about 40k produced. 04's had some different styling and ls1 vs ls2 so that could potentially make them rare. All this is speculation though, the generation that would have had an appreciation for these cars or find them desirable down the road probably have no idea what Pontiac is.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree here, other than to point out that the early 2nd gens, both Chevrolet and Pontiac, and especially ones with desirable original engines, are in fact extremely desirable - and their prices reflect this. Later 2nd gens have recently gained some value, and certain Pontiac models (specifically with 400s) have become significantly more pricey, but late 2nd gen Camaros have been slower to catch up in this regard.

This could also go in the opposite direction. The modern GTO was too limited to ever gain a big specific fan base, and it was a hugely unpopular with the traditional Pontiac guys (many of whom don't even like the 3rd/4th gen Firebirds much due to the corporate engines.) The parts availability issue will continue to be a greater concern as they age, and I doubt there is enough volume or restoration popularity for a comprehensive selection of repro parts to hit the scene. I'm sure that the really nice, top tier examples will always have some value, but I don't see them ever being highly desirable in the mainstream.

blackbyrd

iTrader: (14)

^ totally agree it wasnt received well at all on launch, I have actually met very few people that love them. I think sadly it was a good car but a bad GTO at thats what it got critiqued on a lot. The irony is the 1st gen GTO were BOATS with big engines and generally bland the same thing the modern GTO was criticized on. If you are involved in the street rod nationals and rod shows at all its glaringly obvious that the trend of youth going after the hot cars of their era is down. Im not sure about you but ill be 34 this year and I dont have many friends, I think I can count them on one hand actually, that are still into cars much less want to build a project car/ have one as a collectible or restore one. Me personally im a weirdo id love to do a 32 ford, and an old f100 at some point. I tend to like a lot of the older cars they just have so much more personality that a lot of the newer stuff out. I dont see any millennials resto-modding a kia or a honda in the late 30's or 40's.

the 70-73 second gen is the one I was referring to actually, I kind of forget that second gen encompasses a pretty large window of body styles for the fbody. I always wanted a split bumper car, one popped up across the street from my Father in law and I picked it up. Wasnt much but it was pretty straight with no rust underneath and had a 9" rearend with no center chunk, engine or trans.....and a terrible sunroof. Picked it up for 4k and have been buying parts ever since. I just dont see anything from 90's up being that captivating to anyone, specially not enough to warrant a premium like some of the original muscle cars of the 60's and now 70's.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I'm a bit older than you but I see a similar trend. When I was in high school a couple kids with money had brand new early LT1 4th gens, everyone else in the hobby had beat up 2nd gens, older fox bodies and 3rd gen F-bodies, and there were a couple of guys with turbo 4-cylinder Mopars from the '80s, and one or two turbo Buicks. The import scene was pretty small in my area in the early-mid '90s, not much to speak of there. Back then I had a '71 Cutlass, then an '89 Formula 350.

Having said that, I've seen the same as you - today, the guys my age who are still in the hobby mostly want newer Corvettes or 5th/6th gen Camaros, new Mustangs or maybe a performance import. Some of them want LS-swapped classic muscle cars of '72 or earlier. Only a small percentage of them want to have those 3rd/4th gen F-bodies or Fox bodies again, and I think that's held a cap on their value.

I'm sort of rare on both counts. I really like the old stuff, meaning original muscle era, since that was my first love. My '71 Nova is a vastly nicer condition continuation of the '71 Cutlass I had in high school. I have no interest in LS-swapping it because I like the basic tech purity of the car and best enjoy it as the dinosaur that it is. Modernization destroys part of the experience for me, so unlike many my age I generally have no interest in this. As for the 4th gens, my first new car was a '99 Z28 and I've owned several since then. I've had my current '98 for 13 years now, and it's hard to imagine not owning at least one at any given moment. These were not my first automotive love, but they have definitely been my greatest. When I bought my first one, most of the guys I knew in the hobby and of similar age were also into these. Now, 15-20 years later, almost all have moved on and don't seem to have any desire to return.

Personally, I don't feel any strong attachment to the newest generations of performance cars - if I bought one, it would just be a driver that I'd use for a while and then move on. I'm not interested in the latest tech or gadgets, they are more of a hassle and distraction than a positive to me; I can't imagine trouble shooting and repairing those electronics and features when those cars are as old as my '71 is today. I don't see anything from the current era as ever being part of my long term collection.

Some of those split bumper Camaros are worth good money, especially with an original BBC or even the LT1 cars in good, compete shape. But the SD-455 Pontiacs of '73-'74 have been known to bring money as high as any of the big dollar '66-'72 cars. And it's pretty surprising to see what even the late 2nd gens have been bringing with original Pontiac 400s.

I agree, as new cars keep getting faster there seems to be less interest in returning to cars of our youth. Older styling from the '80s/'90s isn't really seen as "classic" but rather "dated" by most, and there was no watershed moment of total performance collapse for 10+ years like there was immediately after the end of the first muscle era. Performance cars from this era rarely offered special, low production engines or other major options that made them rare for significant reasons. Overall, the dynamics just aren't in place for dramatic gains in value among these modern performance cars.

2JAWZ

iTrader: (1)

Well the new cars keep getting faster, but Im not getting out of my LT for anything. I will add to the collection but never rid of her

King Nothing

iTrader: (9)

Do Berger or GMMG count?

King Nothing

iTrader: (9)

I got rid of my 2000 SS one time, never again. It's lighter than the current "muscle cars" and the advantage of having a lot less electronics and computers is awesome! I never have to worry about turning off traction control either and in my GTO I forgot quite a bit lol during an autoX that kinda sucked.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Not as factory cars. They would be more comparable to something like a Yenko or Baldwin Motion creation. They are certainly cool cars, but what makes them rare and special doesn't really have much to do with the OEM or how the car was originally born - which just means they fall into a different category of sorts.

In the original muscle era, before EPA/MPG considerations, GM offered several different special high performance engines direct from the assembly line. With so many available engines, trim levels, performance options and other optional equipment across the entire line-up, it was possible to create/order some truly unique and very special cars right off the assembly line. Special performance cars with a premium engine are still available today as variants of certain performance platforms, but other than colors and some other typical options they aren't really any different from any other example that shares the same badge/trim level - and there are only a handful of platforms on which such is available. Those particular cars certainly stand out, but only time will tell if anyone cares to remember them as their decedents continue to get faster.

sxc Z28

Do not do that trade. Use NADA because that's what banks use not KBB. I stopped reading after post #7 but if you like Pontiac sell the GTO and get a nice 01-02 TA.

topless2002SS

I used to buy used GM A bodies with 4 speeds for less than a 12 bolt that needs to be rebuilt sells for now. Own and drive what makes you smile, don't get into the owning as a investment mindset, trends and values change to much and to fast.