Interesting AFR 205 comparo....
04-16-2009, 01:17 PM
#1
Interesting AFR 205 comparo.... Finally had a customer just test a set of ported 205's I optimized and went thru for him a few months ago with no other changes. I have helped a number of people on this board with the exact same mods and the key to this work is focused in the chambers with some light porting and refinement done in the ports. This highlights more airflow without more port volume adding even more airspeed and efficiency to an already very efficient design.
Its been a popular mod on a handful of 346's, a few 6.0 liter's, and a handful of medium sized strokers as well (383/402/403 combo's). Most if not all of these combo's have produced above average results when the rubber finally hit the rollers (all of them with amazing throttle response as well). It really works well with the larger bore stuff taking more advantage of the unshrouding I do in the combustion chambers but as evident by these results is still very effective on a 3.900 bore combo also. The graph below is an F-body with a mild 383 and a smallish 234/238 camshaft (very street friendly). I have normally been quoting 10-15 HP based on the gains I have seen on the flow bench which certainly looks inline based on the results seen below. I would say a 4' or larger bore motor would reap even a few more ponies from the better matched cylinder wall to combustion chamber transition and additional airflow the larger bore unlocks when the same head is placed on a larger bore fixture on my flowbench.
Note the head was 1-2 cc's smaller after I did the work and milled the deck, so the motor did have a couple of tenths higher static CR. Also, this was not done on the same day (almost a year apart actually) but per the customer the weather and conditions were very similar (same dyno and shop which was New Era Performance). The big news, IMO, is the area under the curve. It simply looks like a larger motor was tested by the way the increase in torque is available immediatly (much like a stroker would offer) and carries even larger gains in the middle with an 18 RWHP gain at it's widest point. Discounting a few ponies for the small CR bump, still a very effective gain from the work performed.
Most of my other customers have incorporated this work with alot of other changes....cams, ported intakes, sizable compression and/or displacement increases, etc.....so this is kind of a unique glimpse of what the bulk of the gains from just the head work is worth which a fair amount of you have inquired about. Previous to this I just quoted other package results that were similar and the 10-15 HP my "air dyno" told me it might be worth....LOL
Enjoy....
Its been a popular mod on a handful of 346's, a few 6.0 liter's, and a handful of medium sized strokers as well (383/402/403 combo's). Most if not all of these combo's have produced above average results when the rubber finally hit the rollers (all of them with amazing throttle response as well). It really works well with the larger bore stuff taking more advantage of the unshrouding I do in the combustion chambers but as evident by these results is still very effective on a 3.900 bore combo also. The graph below is an F-body with a mild 383 and a smallish 234/238 camshaft (very street friendly). I have normally been quoting 10-15 HP based on the gains I have seen on the flow bench which certainly looks inline based on the results seen below. I would say a 4' or larger bore motor would reap even a few more ponies from the better matched cylinder wall to combustion chamber transition and additional airflow the larger bore unlocks when the same head is placed on a larger bore fixture on my flowbench.
Note the head was 1-2 cc's smaller after I did the work and milled the deck, so the motor did have a couple of tenths higher static CR. Also, this was not done on the same day (almost a year apart actually) but per the customer the weather and conditions were very similar (same dyno and shop which was New Era Performance). The big news, IMO, is the area under the curve. It simply looks like a larger motor was tested by the way the increase in torque is available immediatly (much like a stroker would offer) and carries even larger gains in the middle with an 18 RWHP gain at it's widest point. Discounting a few ponies for the small CR bump, still a very effective gain from the work performed.
Most of my other customers have incorporated this work with alot of other changes....cams, ported intakes, sizable compression and/or displacement increases, etc.....so this is kind of a unique glimpse of what the bulk of the gains from just the head work is worth which a fair amount of you have inquired about. Previous to this I just quoted other package results that were similar and the 10-15 HP my "air dyno" told me it might be worth....LOL
Enjoy....
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 04-16-2009 at 01:27 PM.
04-16-2009, 02:01 PM
#3
This back to back comparison was done on my Trans AM/Firehawk, see the link in my sig for details, but the short list is:
LS6 Stroked LPE 383 Block,
AFR 205 heads (now ported by Tony),
AFR 234/238 114 cam,
Fast90/90,
85mm MAF/Lid,
1 3/4" headers WITH cats,
ASP pulley,
EWP,
GMMG dual cat back exhaust,
electric cut-out.
The dyno pulls were done with the cutout closed. Opened would gain 5 hp & 5 torque, but only at their peak points.
Mike at New Era Performance was able to knock the tune into place easily enough yesterday afternoon.
Sponser --->>
The porting gained 11rwhp & 11rwtq at its peaks, but like Tony stated, under the curve we have an 18 hp gain and an 15 torque gain.
LS6 Stroked LPE 383 Block,
AFR 205 heads (now ported by Tony),
AFR 234/238 114 cam,
Fast90/90,
85mm MAF/Lid,
1 3/4" headers WITH cats,
ASP pulley,
EWP,
GMMG dual cat back exhaust,
electric cut-out.
The dyno pulls were done with the cutout closed. Opened would gain 5 hp & 5 torque, but only at their peak points.
Mike at New Era Performance was able to knock the tune into place easily enough yesterday afternoon.
Sponser --->>
The porting gained 11rwhp & 11rwtq at its peaks, but like Tony stated, under the curve we have an 18 hp gain and an 15 torque gain.
Last edited by Michael02hawk; 04-16-2009 at 02:10 PM.
04-16-2009, 03:27 PM
#7
AFR could digitize the port though and offer a "competition" port, which would probably be $500 more due to the increased CNC time. I'm just not sure the market would be okay with a $2700 head.
But, the Competition LT1/SBC heads are still cheaper than their LS1 stuff using LS1 valves and springs and the same aluminum. I don't know if the standard 205 has more CNC time though.
Either way, $2300-2400 for the improved port and AFR 8019s (as standard) would probably sell very well.
But, the Competition LT1/SBC heads are still cheaper than their LS1 stuff using LS1 valves and springs and the same aluminum. I don't know if the standard 205 has more CNC time though.
Either way, $2300-2400 for the improved port and AFR 8019s (as standard) would probably sell very well.
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04-16-2009, 04:07 PM
#9
The reality is as good as our CNC programming is (and anyone else's for that matter short of some ultra exotic programs found in the one off big dollar stuff), in a production environment there will always be room for more in the hands of a very capable cylinder head expert. The fact I designed the original prototype enables me to know exactly what area's to finese that might be sensitive to flow and respond with some gains. Basically, I take a reeaaally good CNC piece and I perfect it essentially.
Some of the gains related to this work will be incorporated into some new products that are a few months away (our all new 215 LS head and finally the completion of our big boy which has grown from 235cc's to 240 which will be its moniker). Both of the new heads are cathedral style ports and neither is six bolt (before you ask) which is really a perk that few of you actually need (you have to be over four digits to the tire before a four bolt head will start to give you long term reliability issues).
Hope this clears a few things up for you guys....I knew as soon as I hit send I probably should have included a paragragh or two touching on this....LOL
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 04-16-2009 at 04:18 PM.
04-17-2009, 07:08 AM
#12
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Yes....This is the work I do for some of the guys who are looking for every last pony (and are willing to pay for it) and its all done by myself personally by hand afterhours at my home where I have built a really effective work station including a downdraft bench etc.
The reality is as good as our CNC programming is (and anyone else's for that matter short of some ultra exotic programs found in the one off big dollar stuff), in a production environment there will always be room for more in the hands of a very capable cylinder head expert. The fact I designed the original prototype enables me to know exactly what area's to finese that might be sensitive to flow and respond with some gains. Basically, I take a reeaaally good CNC piece and I perfect it essentially.
Some of the gains related to this work will be incorporated into some new products that are a few months away (our all new 215 LS head and finally the completion of our big boy which has grown from 235cc's to 240 which will be its moniker). Both of the new heads are cathedral style ports and neither is six bolt (before you ask) which is really a perk that few of you actually need (you have to be over four digits to the tire before a four bolt head will start to give you long term reliability issues).
Hope this clears a few things up for you guys....I knew as soon as I hit send I probably should have included a paragragh or two touching on this....LOL
-Tony
The reality is as good as our CNC programming is (and anyone else's for that matter short of some ultra exotic programs found in the one off big dollar stuff), in a production environment there will always be room for more in the hands of a very capable cylinder head expert. The fact I designed the original prototype enables me to know exactly what area's to finese that might be sensitive to flow and respond with some gains. Basically, I take a reeaaally good CNC piece and I perfect it essentially.
Some of the gains related to this work will be incorporated into some new products that are a few months away (our all new 215 LS head and finally the completion of our big boy which has grown from 235cc's to 240 which will be its moniker). Both of the new heads are cathedral style ports and neither is six bolt (before you ask) which is really a perk that few of you actually need (you have to be over four digits to the tire before a four bolt head will start to give you long term reliability issues).
Hope this clears a few things up for you guys....I knew as soon as I hit send I probably should have included a paragragh or two touching on this....LOL
-Tony
You'll have to send me that image to work, since it is deamed pornography and blocked. 
