AFR 205's + 228/228 113* = 500 RWHP!!
10-09-2009, 07:59 PM
#1
AFR 205's + 228/228 113* = 500 RWHP!! Guys,
I spoke with Tony Mamo several times about where I wanted to be with a H/C combination for this motor, conservative yet stout with an ability to see 7000 rpm & not nose over.
His recommendations included a set of milled AFR 205's that he would invest some additional time porting/optimizing by hand (think you guys refer to this as "Mamofied 205's" in other builds I have seen), of course one of his ported FAST 90/ported LS2 TB combos, and Tony also recommended a custom grind single pattern cam due to the flow characteristics of the ported heads and the fact I wanted to also make as much low speed TQ as possible while not hurting the big HP numbers upstairs (yes...like most I wanted the have your cake and eat it to scenario!). I of course also included some of the other popular supporting bolt ons, LG Pros including 3" mufflers, Cadillac Racing Lifters, YT 1.7 roller rockers, EWP & UD pulley.
I installed the components a year ago, run it up on a Mustang dyno with good results.
I also spent the bulk of this summer learning how to tune via a multitude of emails, reading, watching DVD's, collaborating with a friend who has very in depth understanding of the tuning software. Very key component to bringing the entire package together! This made the dyno session very quick, the numbers were hit within a few runs.
As this tuning process went on all the classic clutch problems began to develop, and ultimately I had to replace that. In my quest for power I decided I should have 4:10 rear installed at the same time, an LS7 clutch, LS2 Flywheel, new Slave & remote bleeder. My thinking was the 4:10's would hopefully ease the life of the clutch.
In the same building I had the parts installed was a Dyno Dynamics eddy current dyno, and after finding out about an previous dyno day I decided to review some runs & met with some of the participants. They had a good turn out and certainly not a generous dyno with a bonestock C6Z06 making a best run of 441 RWHP which seems to be in line (or lower honestly) than most of the online results I have read about. Realistically, I was hoping for 475+ and was obviously pretty thrilled when we rolled a couple of runs in the high 490's and one run that just eeked out 500 RWHP!! I was also quite pleased with the low RPM torque output....most of the higher powered (typically big cam) stock displacement builds don't make those kinds of numbers under 4000 RPM's, at least from what I have observed pouring over the various results. And the torque (440 RWTQ) feels very good in the car btw....you can really feel it push you in the seat above 4K.
Needless to say there were several very impressed onlooker's as the runs took place, my Black 3X Vert had done proud!
Looks like Tony may have prescribed just the recipe I needed to try and maintain the best of both worlds. It wasn't a budget build by any stretch but I'm really happy about the results and wanted to share.
Here is copy of all the runs I made....I was also impressed how consistent they were (Tony....thanks for helping out with the dyno graph!)
Cheers,
Dale
I spoke with Tony Mamo several times about where I wanted to be with a H/C combination for this motor, conservative yet stout with an ability to see 7000 rpm & not nose over.
His recommendations included a set of milled AFR 205's that he would invest some additional time porting/optimizing by hand (think you guys refer to this as "Mamofied 205's" in other builds I have seen), of course one of his ported FAST 90/ported LS2 TB combos, and Tony also recommended a custom grind single pattern cam due to the flow characteristics of the ported heads and the fact I wanted to also make as much low speed TQ as possible while not hurting the big HP numbers upstairs (yes...like most I wanted the have your cake and eat it to scenario!). I of course also included some of the other popular supporting bolt ons, LG Pros including 3" mufflers, Cadillac Racing Lifters, YT 1.7 roller rockers, EWP & UD pulley.
I installed the components a year ago, run it up on a Mustang dyno with good results.
I also spent the bulk of this summer learning how to tune via a multitude of emails, reading, watching DVD's, collaborating with a friend who has very in depth understanding of the tuning software. Very key component to bringing the entire package together! This made the dyno session very quick, the numbers were hit within a few runs.
As this tuning process went on all the classic clutch problems began to develop, and ultimately I had to replace that. In my quest for power I decided I should have 4:10 rear installed at the same time, an LS7 clutch, LS2 Flywheel, new Slave & remote bleeder. My thinking was the 4:10's would hopefully ease the life of the clutch.
In the same building I had the parts installed was a Dyno Dynamics eddy current dyno, and after finding out about an previous dyno day I decided to review some runs & met with some of the participants. They had a good turn out and certainly not a generous dyno with a bonestock C6Z06 making a best run of 441 RWHP which seems to be in line (or lower honestly) than most of the online results I have read about. Realistically, I was hoping for 475+ and was obviously pretty thrilled when we rolled a couple of runs in the high 490's and one run that just eeked out 500 RWHP!! I was also quite pleased with the low RPM torque output....most of the higher powered (typically big cam) stock displacement builds don't make those kinds of numbers under 4000 RPM's, at least from what I have observed pouring over the various results. And the torque (440 RWTQ) feels very good in the car btw....you can really feel it push you in the seat above 4K.
Needless to say there were several very impressed onlooker's as the runs took place, my Black 3X Vert had done proud!
Looks like Tony may have prescribed just the recipe I needed to try and maintain the best of both worlds. It wasn't a budget build by any stretch but I'm really happy about the results and wanted to share.
Here is copy of all the runs I made....I was also impressed how consistent they were (Tony....thanks for helping out with the dyno graph!)
Cheers,
Dale
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10-10-2009, 02:43 PM
#12
I made 480 with out of the box stock 205's and a smaller cam. The bump in the camshaft and my additional head work is worth about 25 RWHP or so. What I do agree with is he would have made even more with a lighter clutch/flywheel assembly making the results all the more impressive.
Lastly, look at the dyno curve....there is nothing remotely unbelievable about any of the data except that due to a very optimized well configured package it hangs the torque curve out there (slowly and smoothly dropping past peak torque) which ultimately is what brings the big power to the table you feel is unrealistic.
Its low speed torque is solid but not over the top (375 RWTQ or so in the 3K range.....slightly under 400 in the 4K range). Its peak torque is exactly what you would expect a package of this caliber to make (I told Dale I was hoping for 435 to 440 RWTQ)....it simply doesn't roll over a quickly as most of the typical heads/cam packages.
Its just a really good working combination and I need to add that Dale with the help of some good friends also spent the better part of a year dialing in the tune. Do you think that is worth something?.....I know I do. Very few people/shops can invest that type of time in the tune and that can easily make a really good package look even better.
I wont lie....I was hoping this combo would land in the 490 range (knowing the tune, the install, and other small details could add or subtract ten from that number quickly). I never even let the word five hundred leave my lips when we were discussing this package and quite frankly Dale wasn't looking for 500 either. He was realistic about what he was hoping to achieve. But when you examine the dyno curve, none of the numbers that matter (and give clues to BS results) are out of line. I question when I see 346 CID pump gas engines making more than 440 RWTQ....I question when I see 346 pump gas engines with BIG cams make close to 400 RWTQ at 3000 RPM, etc. etc,....some things can happen and some things aren't realistic.
This is just a package that went together smoothly and provided the best results that anyone knowledgeable in this field could have realistically hoped for....but alot of time, attention to detail (and money!) when into the final results and its a good day when it all pays off!
Cheers,
Tony
10-10-2009, 03:10 PM
#13
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Nice results man...Congrats on the new found power...
Is it just me, or does it seem that vets with similiar combos to that of an F-body, always seem to dyno higher?..I have seen this combo go anywhere from 450RWHP all the way up to these numbers...The same goes for the torque as well...
Kev
Is it just me, or does it seem that vets with similiar combos to that of an F-body, always seem to dyno higher?..I have seen this combo go anywhere from 450RWHP all the way up to these numbers...The same goes for the torque as well...
Kev
10-10-2009, 03:31 PM
#15
Nice results man...Congrats on the new found power...
Is it just me, or does it seem that vets with similiar combos to that of an F-body, always seem to dyno higher?..I have seen this combo go anywhere from 450RWHP all the way up to these numbers...The same goes for the torque as well...
Kev
Is it just me, or does it seem that vets with similiar combos to that of an F-body, always seem to dyno higher?..I have seen this combo go anywhere from 450RWHP all the way up to these numbers...The same goes for the torque as well...
Kev
I think alot of that has to do with the incredibly perfect chassis layout for a large X-Pipe close to the header where it does the most good as well as plenty of room for dual 3" pipes attached to that "X".....
The F-Body isn't near as optimal in the exhaust department.
I think the rear is also not as "parasitic" on a Vette....especially when compared to the larger 12 bolt and Ford 9" options sometimes installed.
Also, the fact that a stock 427 CID C6Z06 rolled in the low 440's on the same day and the same dyno speaks volumes about the authenticity of the OP's results. I forget to mention that in my post above.
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 10-10-2009 at 03:39 PM.
10-10-2009, 03:59 PM
#17
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Vette's usually do dyno higher....at least from what I have seen.
I think alot of that has to do with the incredibly perfect chassis layout for a large X-Pipe close to the header where it does the most good as well as plenty of room for dual 3" pipes attached to that "X".....
The F-Body isn't near as optimal in the exhaust department.
I think the rear is also not as "parasitic" on a Vette....especially when compared to the larger 12 bolt and Ford 9" options sometimes installed.
Also, the fact that a stock 427 CID C6Z06 rolled in the low 440's on the same day and the same dyno speaks volumes about the authenticity of the OP's results. I forget to mention that in my post above.
-Tony
I think alot of that has to do with the incredibly perfect chassis layout for a large X-Pipe close to the header where it does the most good as well as plenty of room for dual 3" pipes attached to that "X".....
The F-Body isn't near as optimal in the exhaust department.
I think the rear is also not as "parasitic" on a Vette....especially when compared to the larger 12 bolt and Ford 9" options sometimes installed.
Also, the fact that a stock 427 CID C6Z06 rolled in the low 440's on the same day and the same dyno speaks volumes about the authenticity of the OP's results. I forget to mention that in my post above.
-Tony
This setup has proven good results for along time now...
Kev
10-10-2009, 04:33 PM
#18
Tx's for your input Tony as always.
The basis of my combination was to insure your baseline from the original combination was easily achieved.
That meant ported & milled heads, yes results were slightly better than anticipated.
My tuner friend always states "The Devil is in the Details"
The basis of my combination was to insure your baseline from the original combination was easily achieved.
That meant ported & milled heads, yes results were slightly better than anticipated.
My tuner friend always states "The Devil is in the Details"
