What engine config. will it take to get 1000+ rwhp under 22 PSI out of 62mm twins?
01-14-2009, 09:14 PM
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What engine config. will it take to get 1000+ rwhp under 22 PSI out of 62mm twins? Hey everyone, I currently have an '05 GTO with a stock bottom-end LS2. I just recently took the Maggie off and will be having a custom twin turbo setup here soon. I'll be running the stock motor at low boost for now, but when I do a forged motor later down the road I want to break the 1,000 rwhp mark through my stalled 4L60E (Preformabuilt).
I'm looking at probably two 62mm Precision turbos (HP6265's), and want to achieve 1,000+ rwhp on no more than 22 PSI. If we could keep things at 20 PSI that would definitely be even better.
For the future motor I'm probably looking at doing a forged iron block 408, and stuffing it with a custom turbo cam and aftermarket thick-deck heads. not sure what heads I'll be using exactly, but I want to make sure my rwhp goal is going to be possible.
I want a motor with not too low of a compression. The car will see a bit of drag strip use, but when I do occasionally drive the car on the street I don't want it to be a pig while it's not in boost. I want to be able to get up and go pretty quickly without much effort. I think my 3200 stall converter will help with that, but even under light throttle I want the compression to get things moving well.
At the same time, I want the motor to probably be able to handle as much as 25 PSI (though I'll probably never crank it past 23, ever, if I limit the motor to around 25 PSI). It also needs to generate 1,000+ rwhp at around 20-22 PSI, through a stalled A4.
Is this reasonable to expect out of twin 62mm turbos?
If so, what Diamond pistons and all would I be looking at to get the compression ratio of the engine where it needs to be to support these goals while in boost as well as while not in boost? Is there anything else that I need to be considering engine-wise for this?
Thanks in advance to anyone that can provide some help on this. I would've posted this in the engine tech section, but wasn't sure how many people that browse that section are deeply familiar with turbos. But I figured you all that frequent the forced inductions section that run forged motors might be better off seeing my thread and might be able to provide then answers.
-Andrew
I'm looking at probably two 62mm Precision turbos (HP6265's), and want to achieve 1,000+ rwhp on no more than 22 PSI. If we could keep things at 20 PSI that would definitely be even better.
For the future motor I'm probably looking at doing a forged iron block 408, and stuffing it with a custom turbo cam and aftermarket thick-deck heads. not sure what heads I'll be using exactly, but I want to make sure my rwhp goal is going to be possible.
I want a motor with not too low of a compression. The car will see a bit of drag strip use, but when I do occasionally drive the car on the street I don't want it to be a pig while it's not in boost. I want to be able to get up and go pretty quickly without much effort. I think my 3200 stall converter will help with that, but even under light throttle I want the compression to get things moving well.
At the same time, I want the motor to probably be able to handle as much as 25 PSI (though I'll probably never crank it past 23, ever, if I limit the motor to around 25 PSI). It also needs to generate 1,000+ rwhp at around 20-22 PSI, through a stalled A4.
Is this reasonable to expect out of twin 62mm turbos?
If so, what Diamond pistons and all would I be looking at to get the compression ratio of the engine where it needs to be to support these goals while in boost as well as while not in boost? Is there anything else that I need to be considering engine-wise for this?
Thanks in advance to anyone that can provide some help on this. I would've posted this in the engine tech section, but wasn't sure how many people that browse that section are deeply familiar with turbos. But I figured you all that frequent the forced inductions section that run forged motors might be better off seeing my thread and might be able to provide then answers.
-Andrew
01-14-2009, 09:34 PM
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Another rwhp-robbing factor that I forgot to mention besides the automatic transmission and aftermarket converter is the independant rear suspension. Gotta try to to produce 1,000+ RWHP with the 62's, under 23 PSI, through that power-robbing driveline haha.
Last edited by MEAN GTO; 01-15-2009 at 12:33 AM.
01-14-2009, 10:39 PM
#3
No offense man but you're going to want to change pretty much everything you have in your current setup to shoot for 1000 rwhp reliably.
-IRS is out
-4L60E is out
-Vig stall is out
Go for a 427 LSX w/ 6 bolt heads, TH400 or 4L80 w/ a PTC/Coan/Chance converter, and a 9".
-IRS is out
-4L60E is out
-Vig stall is out
Go for a 427 LSX w/ 6 bolt heads, TH400 or 4L80 w/ a PTC/Coan/Chance converter, and a 9".
01-14-2009, 11:09 PM
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mine engine was not a ls series, but sbc 23 deg head deal\
355 cubes , with twin 61mm , turbonetics ( close to your 62mm)
with 30 psi boosrt , high 250 @ .050 cam , real good flowing heads ( 230+ cc ) , went 7.2 @ 191 mph in 1900 lbs race ready.., thru a power glide
which works out to be around 1000 + rwhp.....
i think the 22 psi you want may not happen....
ideas to think about
cheers
ash
355 cubes , with twin 61mm , turbonetics ( close to your 62mm)
with 30 psi boosrt , high 250 @ .050 cam , real good flowing heads ( 230+ cc ) , went 7.2 @ 191 mph in 1900 lbs race ready.., thru a power glide
which works out to be around 1000 + rwhp.....
i think the 22 psi you want may not happen....
ideas to think about
cheers
ash
01-14-2009, 11:44 PM
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No offense man but you're going to want to change pretty much everything you have in your current setup to shoot for 1000 rwhp reliably.
-IRS is out
-4L60E is out
-Vig stall is out
Go for a 427 LSX w/ 6 bolt heads, TH400 or 4L80 w/ a PTC/Coan/Chance converter, and a 9".
-IRS is out
-4L60E is out
-Vig stall is out
Go for a 427 LSX w/ 6 bolt heads, TH400 or 4L80 w/ a PTC/Coan/Chance converter, and a 9".
Why do you say that the 4L60E is out? My current trans is built for 700 rwhp, but I was planning on upgrading to a Level III ("Invinsible") 4L65E later more than likely. Regardless of which exact trans I use though it will definitely be a power-robbing automatic.
Also why is the Vigilante a bad option?? If it makes any difference the car won't see this insane kind of power often, just occasionally. I'll be running probably no more than 10 PSI on the street, and only crank it up here and there after the motor is built.
mine engine was not a ls series, but sbc 23 deg head deal\
355 cubes , with twin 61mm , turbonetics ( close to your 62mm)
with 30 psi boosrt , high 250 @ .050 cam , real good flowing heads ( 230+ cc ) , went 7.2 @ 191 mph in 1900 lbs race ready.., thru a power glide
which works out to be around 1000 + rwhp.....
i think the 22 psi you want may not happen....
ideas to think about
cheers
ash
355 cubes , with twin 61mm , turbonetics ( close to your 62mm)
with 30 psi boosrt , high 250 @ .050 cam , real good flowing heads ( 230+ cc ) , went 7.2 @ 191 mph in 1900 lbs race ready.., thru a power glide
which works out to be around 1000 + rwhp.....
i think the 22 psi you want may not happen....
ideas to think about
cheers
ash
I definitely need to find out if my goals are possible though, or if I'm really going to need to look toward using bigger turbos.
Thanks for your input so far guys!
01-14-2009, 11:57 PM
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High hp GTO here With a warhawk 6 bolt setup going in very soon.
Why 1000 + rwhp ?
GTO are hard enough to get 800 rwhp to hook how you planning to get over 1000 down?
Why do you want to stay under a psi limit?
Like every body said all part you have now will be thrown out. The GTO are a very heavy car with a high hp. you start to break every thing. Ive seen it where the IRS starts to rip out of the car when people get them to hook.
1000 hp in a light car might not push water but 1000 hp in a very heavy GTO might lift the heads with ease.
800-900 hp GTO take alot of money. A GTO with over 1000 rwhp is getting into the plain stupid level of cash.
Why 1000 + rwhp ?
GTO are hard enough to get 800 rwhp to hook how you planning to get over 1000 down?
Why do you want to stay under a psi limit?
Like every body said all part you have now will be thrown out. The GTO are a very heavy car with a high hp. you start to break every thing. Ive seen it where the IRS starts to rip out of the car when people get them to hook.
1000 hp in a light car might not push water but 1000 hp in a very heavy GTO might lift the heads with ease.
800-900 hp GTO take alot of money. A GTO with over 1000 rwhp is getting into the plain stupid level of cash.
01-15-2009, 12:29 AM
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High hp GTO here With a warhawk 6 bolt setup going in very soon.
Why 1000 + rwhp ?
GTO are hard enough to get 800 rwhp to hook how you planning to get over 1000 down?
Why do you want to stay under a psi limit?
Like every body said all part you have now will be thrown out. The GTO are a very heavy car with a high hp. you start to break every thing. Ive seen it where the IRS starts to rip out of the car when people get them to hook.
1000 hp in a light car might not push water but 1000 hp in a very heavy GTO might lift the heads with ease.
800-900 hp GTO take alot of money. A GTO with over 1000 rwhp is getting into the plain stupid level of cash.
Why 1000 + rwhp ?
GTO are hard enough to get 800 rwhp to hook how you planning to get over 1000 down?
Why do you want to stay under a psi limit?
Like every body said all part you have now will be thrown out. The GTO are a very heavy car with a high hp. you start to break every thing. Ive seen it where the IRS starts to rip out of the car when people get them to hook.
1000 hp in a light car might not push water but 1000 hp in a very heavy GTO might lift the heads with ease.
800-900 hp GTO take alot of money. A GTO with over 1000 rwhp is getting into the plain stupid level of cash.
I guess 1,000+ because the automatic is a pig from a roll, and if I ever have an encounter with another big-power car I want to have a bigger chance of walking away. I may only use that much boost/power a few times ever, but I want it to be there just incase.
I plan on using a good boost controller (AMS-1000) for progressive boost control, in order to try to help with the traction at higher PSI. It's not going to eliminate traction problems, but it should help a good bit.
Honestly, I'm not sure why I want to stay under a PSI limit other than hopefully not having to go with too low of a compression in order to handle higher boost, which might require bigger turbos than I'm planning.
As far as lifting the heads goes, what needs to be done to prevent them from lifting with that kind of power? Is that what this "6 bolt" setup is that you and calongo_SS mentioned? What is a 6 bolt setup exactly? I've never looked into that. Thanks!
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01-15-2009, 01:43 AM
#8
yuo dont need 6 boolt with 1000bhp. Nick Yoskin pushed his LS7 with twin 66mm turbos to over 1000bhp. and LB made similar power with a 402 and twin GT35rs (manual thoguh).
30psi has been run on a 4bolt setup by a guy on this board! he got the block O-ringed and it worked a treat. this is also what the likes of Nelson RRacing do on their TT builds.
Have a look around what other people are doing. there are a lot of mad builds out there so look how they are doing it.
Chris.
30psi has been run on a 4bolt setup by a guy on this board! he got the block O-ringed and it worked a treat. this is also what the likes of Nelson RRacing do on their TT builds.
Have a look around what other people are doing. there are a lot of mad builds out there so look how they are doing it.
Chris.
01-15-2009, 03:28 AM
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Alright. I just wrote a big *** reply and it got deleted by clicking on a bookmark on the top of my page on accident so here goes a short version of what I wrote. haha
The turbo's. A decent 62mm turbo is good for 60lbs per minute which equates to 600 Flywheel hp and with 2 of them you'd obviously be good for 1200hp... The problem is you'll have to pretty much max out those turbos to get them to put down your 1k rwhp goal which will most likely put them out of their efficiency range. Go to a 66mm or 67mm. That'll keep things safe and also give you room to advance later!
It doesn't matter what 4l6x you have. The will not survive for a extended period of time with anything over 800hp. Your best bet would be to go to a 4l80 at that point...
6 bolt per cylinder setup... That is pretty much your most reliable and best option at this point. Is it over kill for a 1k rwhp goal? Not in my eyes. It'll be the most reliable setup you can do when it comes to lsx engines and boost. Those two extra bolts keep the heads down well. It doesn't matter if you are only pushing 15psi on a 4 bolt setup, they can still push water if your tune is off. The most you can do to a 4 bolt setup to prevent headgasket issues and lifting the head is to- machine the block and head for 1/2" head studs, O-ring the block or head, run a set of copper head gaskets, and use an EXCELLENT tuner and have him run as little timing as possible to hit your goal. Timing advance is said to be one of the most problematic reason for head lifting... If the timing is set just right without to much you shouldn't have any issues. There are people like I said that have 800rwhp cars that lift there head and there are people that don't have that problem tell 1400rwhp. It's all in the tune and how your motor is built... 6 bolt design just helps keep them down that much more!
Whatever you decide good luck! It should be fun!
The turbo's. A decent 62mm turbo is good for 60lbs per minute which equates to 600 Flywheel hp and with 2 of them you'd obviously be good for 1200hp... The problem is you'll have to pretty much max out those turbos to get them to put down your 1k rwhp goal which will most likely put them out of their efficiency range. Go to a 66mm or 67mm. That'll keep things safe and also give you room to advance later!
It doesn't matter what 4l6x you have. The will not survive for a extended period of time with anything over 800hp. Your best bet would be to go to a 4l80 at that point...
6 bolt per cylinder setup... That is pretty much your most reliable and best option at this point. Is it over kill for a 1k rwhp goal? Not in my eyes. It'll be the most reliable setup you can do when it comes to lsx engines and boost. Those two extra bolts keep the heads down well. It doesn't matter if you are only pushing 15psi on a 4 bolt setup, they can still push water if your tune is off. The most you can do to a 4 bolt setup to prevent headgasket issues and lifting the head is to- machine the block and head for 1/2" head studs, O-ring the block or head, run a set of copper head gaskets, and use an EXCELLENT tuner and have him run as little timing as possible to hit your goal. Timing advance is said to be one of the most problematic reason for head lifting... If the timing is set just right without to much you shouldn't have any issues. There are people like I said that have 800rwhp cars that lift there head and there are people that don't have that problem tell 1400rwhp. It's all in the tune and how your motor is built... 6 bolt design just helps keep them down that much more!
Whatever you decide good luck! It should be fun!
01-15-2009, 04:21 AM
#10
TECH Apprentice
not bagging this post ...
but
why do ppl want to tune to , or stay under "xyz" psi boost???
boost is a measure ment of air in the3 intake manifold..
NOT POWER
the engine "thinks" it is a 8 cyl air compressor.....
get the heads, intake, exhaust , cam etc, to work as a TEAM , together , and the engine will process more cfm / or Lb's /min and therefore make more power...
keep posting the results, sounds interesting...
cheers
ash
but
why do ppl want to tune to , or stay under "xyz" psi boost???
boost is a measure ment of air in the3 intake manifold..
NOT POWER
the engine "thinks" it is a 8 cyl air compressor.....
get the heads, intake, exhaust , cam etc, to work as a TEAM , together , and the engine will process more cfm / or Lb's /min and therefore make more power...
keep posting the results, sounds interesting...
cheers
ash
01-15-2009, 04:54 AM
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mine engine was not a ls series, but sbc 23 deg head deal\
355 cubes , with twin 61mm , turbonetics ( close to your 62mm)
with 30 psi boosrt , high 250 @ .050 cam , real good flowing heads ( 230+ cc ) , went 7.2 @ 191 mph in 1900 lbs race ready.., thru a power glide
which works out to be around 1000 + rwhp.....
i think the 22 psi you want may not happen....
ideas to think about
cheers
ash
355 cubes , with twin 61mm , turbonetics ( close to your 62mm)
with 30 psi boosrt , high 250 @ .050 cam , real good flowing heads ( 230+ cc ) , went 7.2 @ 191 mph in 1900 lbs race ready.., thru a power glide
which works out to be around 1000 + rwhp.....
i think the 22 psi you want may not happen....
ideas to think about
cheers
ash
So im guessing with a 408, you still CAN do 1000rwhp with a max boost level of 20PSI.
I agree with the other comment the 4L60 has to come out!
01-15-2009, 05:17 AM
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Forcing the turbo to compress the air and pressurize the intake, heats the crap out of the IAT. An efficient engine that can produce a very good number in its NA form will rely less on the turbos compressing ability, and end up with a cooler intake charge.
Unless you have a 4x4 and can stuff in a HUUGE FM intercooler. Thats what our small displacement 1000RWHP Turbo Nissan Patrols are doing to run 2.5bar of boost and more (on the street).
Doesnt matter for you guys running straight meth too though.
So basically my understanding is the OP wants to reach his goals with as little boost as possible.
Unless you have a 4x4 and can stuff in a HUUGE FM intercooler. Thats what our small displacement 1000RWHP Turbo Nissan Patrols are doing to run 2.5bar of boost and more (on the street).
Doesnt matter for you guys running straight meth too though.
So basically my understanding is the OP wants to reach his goals with as little boost as possible.
not bagging this post ...
but
why do ppl want to tune to , or stay under "xyz" psi boost???
boost is a measure ment of air in the3 intake manifold..
NOT POWER
the engine "thinks" it is a 8 cyl air compressor.....
get the heads, intake, exhaust , cam etc, to work as a TEAM , together , and the engine will process more cfm / or Lb's /min and therefore make more power...
keep posting the results, sounds interesting...
cheers
ash
but
why do ppl want to tune to , or stay under "xyz" psi boost???
boost is a measure ment of air in the3 intake manifold..
NOT POWER
the engine "thinks" it is a 8 cyl air compressor.....
get the heads, intake, exhaust , cam etc, to work as a TEAM , together , and the engine will process more cfm / or Lb's /min and therefore make more power...
keep posting the results, sounds interesting...
cheers
ash
01-15-2009, 06:05 AM
#13
TECH Apprentice
Doesnt matter for you guys running straight meth too though.
yes, i know....
thats why i said those facts, real life facts, dyno facts ,real drag race facts./..
i was using a comparision , of 23 deg headed sbc, to his LS engine.
with my turbo alcohol engine, and my very simular turbo's , i feel , andrew will be border line in achiving his goals.
the meth fuel helps the engine sustain a manageble cylinder pressure, and intake air temperature .
if a 350 ish cube engine , with twin 61's only makes just over 1200 hp , with alchly, with 30 psi ,
the 408 cube deal will be border line doing it with 20 psi.....
quick maths here...
408 cubes @ 6500 rpm with 20 psi ( at 100 % volumetric effiec.)
will comsume 125 .2 lb's /min of air.....
roughly 1252 hp...
at higher boost the engine will run out of steam earlier....( 408 cubes @ 23 psi will run out of turbo at 6000 rpm)
lol
1200 hp @ 6000 rpm will require a soilid bottom end....
this is where guys with simular interest bounce ideas around.
i think another guy suggested twin 66's...
i like the idea of 66's , and it will do it easier..
yes, i know....
thats why i said those facts, real life facts, dyno facts ,real drag race facts./..
i was using a comparision , of 23 deg headed sbc, to his LS engine.
with my turbo alcohol engine, and my very simular turbo's , i feel , andrew will be border line in achiving his goals.
the meth fuel helps the engine sustain a manageble cylinder pressure, and intake air temperature .
if a 350 ish cube engine , with twin 61's only makes just over 1200 hp , with alchly, with 30 psi ,
the 408 cube deal will be border line doing it with 20 psi.....
quick maths here...
408 cubes @ 6500 rpm with 20 psi ( at 100 % volumetric effiec.)
will comsume 125 .2 lb's /min of air.....
roughly 1252 hp...
at higher boost the engine will run out of steam earlier....( 408 cubes @ 23 psi will run out of turbo at 6000 rpm)
lol
1200 hp @ 6000 rpm will require a soilid bottom end....
this is where guys with simular interest bounce ideas around.
i think another guy suggested twin 66's...
i like the idea of 66's , and it will do it easier..
01-15-2009, 07:23 AM
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yuo dont need 6 boolt with 1000bhp. Nick Yoskin pushed his LS7 with twin 66mm turbos to over 1000bhp. and LB made similar power with a 402 and twin GT35rs (manual thoguh).
30psi has been run on a 4bolt setup by a guy on this board! he got the block O-ringed and it worked a treat. this is also what the likes of Nelson RRacing do on their TT builds.
Have a look around what other people are doing. there are a lot of mad builds out there so look how they are doing it.
Chris.
30psi has been run on a 4bolt setup by a guy on this board! he got the block O-ringed and it worked a treat. this is also what the likes of Nelson RRacing do on their TT builds.
Have a look around what other people are doing. there are a lot of mad builds out there so look how they are doing it.
Chris.
HE wants over 1000rwhp though a auto and long driveshaft/ most likely needing a heavy 2 part driveshaft for the GTO. Rear end of the power robbing IRS of the GTO before that break and has to switch to a heavy *** 12 bolt or some thing.
Im guessing he needs 1200-1250hp at the motor to get over 1000 rwhp on this car SO this is at the limits of a 4 bolt setup.
01-15-2009, 07:53 AM
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I don't mean to hijack the thread, but how much "could" a camshaft on a ~112LSA cost you, HP wise, instead of using a turbo friendly cam such as on a 116+ LSA?
I love my lopey idle, especially through a basically open downpipe setup, so it lopes nice and hard and still has the awesome turbo spool-up sound. On a setup like the thread starter is contemplating, how much would a lopey cam cost the setup in horsepower?
I love my lopey idle, especially through a basically open downpipe setup, so it lopes nice and hard and still has the awesome turbo spool-up sound. On a setup like the thread starter is contemplating, how much would a lopey cam cost the setup in horsepower?
01-15-2009, 08:12 AM
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turbos arent power adders as much as power multiplyers.... so if your base engine has enough Hp off boost it shouldnt be to much of a problem... but 1000 rwhp is abiut 1300 fwhp in an auto car... not sure a 4l65 can take that but lets take that one out of the talk...
at 22 psi you are supercharging 1.5 atmospheres of pressure, so in theory you only need an engine that puts out 520 fwhp off boost, with that much pressure the adiabatic efficiency is shot and toy ar eseing some big pumping losses... so id say that an engine that makes 600 fwhp off boost will get you there, and to do this on an 8:1 engine you need cubes and great cam and heads....
you could run a dual fuel system that changed between two sets of injectors.. on the same tune, one on pump gas, one on 116 octane... just have the change over at say 14 pounds of boost.. that way you could bump compression on the engine and get some "free" Hp
at 22 psi you are supercharging 1.5 atmospheres of pressure, so in theory you only need an engine that puts out 520 fwhp off boost, with that much pressure the adiabatic efficiency is shot and toy ar eseing some big pumping losses... so id say that an engine that makes 600 fwhp off boost will get you there, and to do this on an 8:1 engine you need cubes and great cam and heads....
you could run a dual fuel system that changed between two sets of injectors.. on the same tune, one on pump gas, one on 116 octane... just have the change over at say 14 pounds of boost.. that way you could bump compression on the engine and get some "free" Hp
01-15-2009, 10:44 AM
#18
427 with a pair of 66's will do that easily. A pair of 62's is pushing it to reach those #'s with low boost. When your looking for big #'s at low boost pressures, you always have to run large turbos to keep compressor efficiency at near max %.
...