D581 coil limitations with FI?
05-18-2011, 07:05 AM
#1
D581 coil limitations with FI? I'm running e85 shooting for 1500rwhp. I would like to know the highest anyone has gone on e85 w/FI and LSx engine and what coils they are running. I'm currently running the D581s (12558693) -square melco coils, as these were the best at the time I purchased them.
My last dyno session we were running into spark blowout issues at a specific rpm and boost level. Car would free rev to redline just fine in neutral. We tightened the plug boot connectors and installed new plugs (old plugs looked fine) that were 1 step colder and gapped tighter (TR7 @ 23) and the next pull got us 500rpm more than before but basically same problem. Each pull thereafter netted a wall at a lower rpm. We added extra grounds, new HO alt, and the battery was on a booster constantly; not a voltage issue.
I've done quite a bit of research and am starting to point my finger at the coil packs. At 1500rwhp on e85 it's nearly double the raw fuel volume of gasoline. That's alot of fuel to light not to mention alot of boost thrown in. I'm concerned that the coils may be the culprit. Kurt had mentioned a similar case in the past which turned out to be coil related.
Does anyone know what the actual voltage output of the D581 and the newer D585 is? Is this a true "upgrade" and if so, by what degree?
I've already changed the plugs to TR10 @ .17 and will be headed to the dyno (for the final time) in a few weeks. I don't want to run into this issue again.
My last dyno session we were running into spark blowout issues at a specific rpm and boost level. Car would free rev to redline just fine in neutral. We tightened the plug boot connectors and installed new plugs (old plugs looked fine) that were 1 step colder and gapped tighter (TR7 @ 23) and the next pull got us 500rpm more than before but basically same problem. Each pull thereafter netted a wall at a lower rpm. We added extra grounds, new HO alt, and the battery was on a booster constantly; not a voltage issue.
I've done quite a bit of research and am starting to point my finger at the coil packs. At 1500rwhp on e85 it's nearly double the raw fuel volume of gasoline. That's alot of fuel to light not to mention alot of boost thrown in. I'm concerned that the coils may be the culprit. Kurt had mentioned a similar case in the past which turned out to be coil related.
Does anyone know what the actual voltage output of the D581 and the newer D585 is? Is this a true "upgrade" and if so, by what degree?
I've already changed the plugs to TR10 @ .17 and will be headed to the dyno (for the final time) in a few weeks. I don't want to run into this issue again.
Last edited by 93formto98T/A; 05-18-2011 at 07:11 AM.
05-19-2011, 06:19 PM
#4
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I have never tested the newer coils, but the three I tested years ago the best was what you have. The dwell time can be raised at higher rpm and normally helps, but may not get the results you want. You can try running the plug gap down under .020, that sometimes helps. You could try adding timing if your in a safe spot now as that will extend the rpm also. What controller are you using?
Kurt
Kurt
05-19-2011, 07:33 PM
#6
I have never tested the newer coils, but the three I tested years ago the best was what you have. The dwell time can be raised at higher rpm and normally helps, but may not get the results you want. You can try running the plug gap down under .020, that sometimes helps. You could try adding timing if your in a safe spot now as that will extend the rpm also. What controller are you using?
Kurt
Kurt
I haven't messed with timing much yet. I believe we were around 17-18 degrees which is very safe with e85.
What's the highest hp made by an lsx setup on e85 or e99? What coils/plugs were they running?
05-19-2011, 08:58 PM
#7
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The coil may limit you in that power zone as you will need 1600+lbs of fuel to reach that level with a blower, not sure you can get that lit with stock ecu/coils. I have seen one aftermarket coil that probably would have the energy, but aftermarket controllers are being used with them.
Kurt
Kurt
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05-19-2011, 09:32 PM
#8
The coil may limit you in that power zone as you will need 1600+lbs of fuel to reach that level with a blower, not sure you can get that lit with stock ecu/coils. I have seen one aftermarket coil that probably would have the energy, but aftermarket controllers are being used with them.
Kurt
Kurt
05-20-2011, 08:57 PM
#15
Looks like the Granatelli lsx replacement coils are rated at 80kV and don't have the heat sinks. Hypertech also has ls1 coils rated at 55K volts. I don't know what the D581 or D585 output is. Would be a heck of an investment at $580 for the granatelli's especially if they're not necessary. But if that's the true answer then I may take a closer look.
After more research; looks like ls1 coils have a max of 38kV output. Still can't find anything on the D581 or D585s. I'm assuming that the D585 is in the neighborhood of 50kV to 60kV.
After more research; looks like ls1 coils have a max of 38kV output. Still can't find anything on the D581 or D585s. I'm assuming that the D585 is in the neighborhood of 50kV to 60kV.
Last edited by 93formto98T/A; 05-20-2011 at 09:47 PM.
05-21-2011, 03:41 PM
#16
9 Second Club
Pantera's IGN-1A is supposed to be superb and performs at low dwell times
Here is one seller. They arent overly expensive.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/i...oil-p-394.html
Oddly, I dont see them on Pantera EFI's own website but if you contact them, Lance will sell them
http://www.panteraefi.com/
Here is one seller. They arent overly expensive.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/i...oil-p-394.html
Oddly, I dont see them on Pantera EFI's own website but if you contact them, Lance will sell them
http://www.panteraefi.com/
05-21-2011, 08:25 PM
#17
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check this out./.
I'm sold... eerrrrr, I was sold, and currently have the truck coils.
Just watch this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...585+coil&hl=en#
He specifically spells out the difference in power that the truck coils deliver compaired to the ls1 coils. Fact is, when you start to bump up the compression and load on a motor, you will benefit from a stronger spark. Why do you think GM replaced the coils when the ls2 was introduced, and once again when the ls7 and ls9 were introduced. GM doesn't spend money switching things for no reason. Fact is, trucks experience very high loads on their engines when towing, and trying to push around 6,000+ lbs, so they needed a higher energy coil. GM saw the benefit, and integrated similar performing coils on the ls2, ls7, ls9.
This is the second dyno that proves they work.
Just watch this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...585+coil&hl=en#
He specifically spells out the difference in power that the truck coils deliver compaired to the ls1 coils. Fact is, when you start to bump up the compression and load on a motor, you will benefit from a stronger spark. Why do you think GM replaced the coils when the ls2 was introduced, and once again when the ls7 and ls9 were introduced. GM doesn't spend money switching things for no reason. Fact is, trucks experience very high loads on their engines when towing, and trying to push around 6,000+ lbs, so they needed a higher energy coil. GM saw the benefit, and integrated similar performing coils on the ls2, ls7, ls9.
This is the second dyno that proves they work.
09-30-2016, 01:49 PM
#18
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GM Truck Coils "stickey" There may be a chance to view an IGN-1A coil installation with brackets and wires.
Search GEN-III external, "truck coil sticky", last page.
NEVER has one stated this coil didn't operate the engine at it's power requirement specified.
Lance
Search GEN-III external, "truck coil sticky", last page.
NEVER has one stated this coil didn't operate the engine at it's power requirement specified.
Lance
09-30-2016, 04:34 PM
#19
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I was also going to bring up the IGN-1A coils. Combine them with some 0-ohm resistance wires, and from what I have heard you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
10-01-2016, 01:02 PM
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Spark Plug Wire Resistance Thanks David, though I would like to add some information.
OEM's like a large plug gap AND wires that have resistance.
There verification is based on great amounts of testing.
Those who "boast" their low resistance (0) wires are fools.
The facts are such, current flow travels AROUND the outside of the wire.
A wire with a small resistance (50-250 Ohm) will allow longer ARC Duration.
Spark Duration is VERY important at lower RPMs.
When the ignition coil is full of electrons, they ALL must go somewhere.
The best path is into the cylinder at the plug gap, all of them will pass when ionization voltage is present.
The arc must be established by the higher voltage needed for ionization to start, then drops as current flows.
This is where a small wire resistance will help increase are duration by limiting current flow.
The same amount of current, just over a greater amount of time.
Lance
OEM's like a large plug gap AND wires that have resistance.
There verification is based on great amounts of testing.
Those who "boast" their low resistance (0) wires are fools.
The facts are such, current flow travels AROUND the outside of the wire.
A wire with a small resistance (50-250 Ohm) will allow longer ARC Duration.
Spark Duration is VERY important at lower RPMs.
When the ignition coil is full of electrons, they ALL must go somewhere.
The best path is into the cylinder at the plug gap, all of them will pass when ionization voltage is present.
The arc must be established by the higher voltage needed for ionization to start, then drops as current flows.
This is where a small wire resistance will help increase are duration by limiting current flow.
The same amount of current, just over a greater amount of time.
Lance