zfastss

iTrader: (6)

Well after 110,000mi I'm getting the dreaded power steering whine. It seems to start after I've driven for a little bit and is most noticeable from 1,500rpm and up.
Last November my stock power steering cooler took a dump and cross-contaminated the power steering with coolant and the coolant with power steering fluid. I changed out the coolant hoses and water pump and had the coolant and power steering system flushed. I installed an aftermarket frame mount power steering cooler to replace the stock cooler. Since then everything seemed fine until a week ago and the whine started.

There is also power steering fluid spraying up onto the underside of the hood from the area where the power steering pump is when the hood is closed. It seems like a fine mist that is collecting in the pump area on the underside of the hood, which make me think either the high pressure line has a pin hole, or there is a drip hitting the pulley or belt, causing it to sling up to the underside of the hood.

Here's the tricky part....all of the lines are dry on the outside and the pump and tank and cap all show no signs of a leak, and nothing is collecting on the ground under the car. The steering feels fine. The dealer had the car for 4 hours today and couldn't find anything wrong other than the whine sound.

The fluid level seems okay (between the add mark and cold mark when I check it in the morning before driving).

What are your thoughts here? If I need to bite the bullet and just get a new pump, I'm only going to get either a new ac delco one from rock auto or a new GM pump from my gm parts guy (he usually matches gmpartsdirect prices for me). Might as well get a new high pressure line too right?

Does anybody know if the gm pump comes with the reservoir and can verify if it is new vs reman? I know the ac delco new ones do not come with a reservoir.

Thanks for listening to me ramble.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

It sounds like the seals/bearings are going bad on the pump and its time for a new one. You can get them with or without the tank.

I highly recommend getting a new pump (lots of people have problems with remans) and get one with the tank installed. (The seal for the tank is special and hard to find locally.)

If you have some time, you could also send yours out to a reputable builder to have it reconditioned. (So, you don't have to worry about someone else's mangled pump coming back to you in reman form.) TurnOne did mine for me (with a stock rebuild) and its been great.

zfastss

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for the input. I don't think I'll be able to wait a week+ for a turn one rebuild of my pump but I'll keep it in mind.
Looking a little closer at my purchase options, it looks like the ac Delco pump that rock auto says is "new" is even re-manufactured, just has all new internals:
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...nid=491&jpid=9

Anyone know if the GM pump is completely new or similar to the delco linked above? Does it matter In this case?
Thanks.

mad-hatter

iTrader: (3)

I've got the same problem with mine. Probably going to go with a A1 Cardone rebuilt one. I've had good experiences with A1's stuff both new (their "select" line) and their rebuilt options on other cars.

Need4Camaro

iTrader: (1)

I highly suggest avoiding the A1 Cardone rebuilt PS pumps, I've heard nothing but bad news about them, and about 90% of rebuilt pumps in general (not just A1) are not properly rebuilt which is why I just forked over $350 to buy a brand new Turn One pump...sometimes its better to pay for quality parts.

mad-hatter

iTrader: (3)

What generally fails on their re-mans? I've never bought one of their pumps, but I have dealt with axles and a few other bits.

zfastss

iTrader: (6)

From other posts I've read, it seems most remans are hit and miss, mostly a miss though, with them being as noisy or more within a couple hundred miles or they start leaking again soon.
From what I can tell, Turn One, AC Delco "new", and the GM pump basically take existing casings (probably core returns) and fully rebuild the internals. Other rebuild companies only replace worn/damaged internals and leave other parts alone that meet their requirements for re-use.

My issue is strange in that one day it will whine all day, and the next day it could be quiet as can be...I don't get it!?!?

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

You can search for threads, but I recall the issues run the gamut and are not specifically related to Cardone. Lots off squealing and power problems with the remans.

mad-hatter

iTrader: (3)

Looks like I'll be going for a new one then when it comes time for mine.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Personally, I have nothing against remans but don't trust the ones offered up to us on the shelf. Sometimes, I wonder if the cores for these things were torn out of wrecked cars, etc.

I had my personal pump rebuilt by TurnOne. They turned it around in a week and it was really nice because I knew I was getting back my original part and not something abused in a clunker. I also new that I was dealing with a reputable vendor/builder who has the skills to identify problem internals vs. whatever some offshore sweatshop is cranking out.

xny1989

iTrader: (1)

I replaced my original pump several years ago with an A1 rebuild. It did not work; returned it for another - it worked, but whines when turning the wheels. I'm living with that, but will one day get tired of the noise and get a new, not rebuilt, pump.

zfastss

iTrader: (6)

UPDATE:
New AC Delco pump installed and fluid flushed by machine at the stealership. Also new GM high pressure line installed since it was cheap with O-rings. My low pressure return line was replaced a couple of months ago too at the stealership. I had to go back and complain because when they installed the pump, they didn't flush the fluid and left the old junk in there which was clearly discolored and still a little milky from when my stock power internal steering cooler broke (this was replaced with an external cooler).

It seemed good for about a day, then the whine comes back after a little while of driving and the fluid warms up. Definitely more pronounced if I am turning, but also can be heard when going straight or at idle. There also seems to be tiny air bubbles in the reservoir which makes me think that air is getting into the system somewhere even though there are still no leaks instead of a bad pump.

Even though the dealer should have done this, I jacked up the front, removed the cap (engine off) and cycled the wheel lock to lock like 100 times as noted in the bleed instructions that came with the ac delco pump. If I did this slow I didn't see any bubbles form in the reservoir. If I do this fast, bubbles will form throughout the fluid (tiny ones to maybe 1/4"), especially when I get to the lock each cycle when I might see a large bubble burp. Sometimes when at the lock I can hear a liquid woosh sound like fluid is being released from a chamber and flowing very fast for a second. I doesn't do this if I cycle the wheel at a slower speed. Also the fluid rises and falls as I cycle the wheel (this is normal right?). Lowest would be when the wheels are pointed straight, and rises as I turn side to side like this:
high<-------| low |-------->high

So based on this what do you all think? Maybe one of the lines was installed too tight and crushed the o-ring letting some air by? Hopefully not something internal with the rack

Thanks again for your input.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

I understand the rack can also cause a squeal. I wonder if you have/had both a pump and a rack issue?


This is normal for a while after a new install. You can't get all the air out and it will slowly bleed. The system is under high pressure, so if you had a leak, you'd see fluid coming out and not air going in.

zfastss

iTrader: (6)

UPDATE AGAIN
Well, 2 GM/AC Delco pumps and 1 GM/AC Delco steering rack later and I still have the same exact problem. All work done at the dealership. Fluid is yellow with a graphite tint to it (definitely not clear yellow). FYI currently all "new" GM pumps and racks are re-manufactured units. Even though places like RockAuto say "new", click on the info/description and it will describe the re-manufacturing standards.

History:
- stock PS cooler leaked and cross contaminated with coolant.
[replaced coolant hoses, coolant flush, replaced return hose from ps rack, ps flush, removed stock ps cooler and replaced with derale 13224 air-water cooler mounted behind air dam as shown in the power steering cooling success thread]...turned out they didn't truly "flush" the ps fluid.
- Whine started, dealer said bad pump and replaced...again didn't "flush" the fluid as it was still black-ish and cloudy.
-ok/silent for a couple days then whine returned.
[dealer said bad pump again caused by their mistake of not flushing fluid and replaced pump and fluid (BG machine flush), also replaced high pressure line from pump].
- ok/silent for a couple of days then whine returned
[dealer said bad rack and replaced]
- ok/ completely silent for a week (about 200mi) and now the whine just came back again!

Dealer is now saying either the pump went bad again, or the external cooler is screwing something up, but I don't see how since it's literally a metal tube with cooling fins.

I'm seriously at a loss now (the only thing left is the reservoir, but there are no signs of leaks or boil-over). It's not a slight whine either (and never was), it's loud/quite noticeable when it's at its worst.

Initially this is only happening after I have driven for a good 30min and everything gets nice and hot with the whine starting semi-quiet and getting louder/more pronounced the longer I drive. Maybe it's boiling inside the lines when I'm in low speed city / stop and go traffic (air temp has been in the 80s lately)? When I parked and stuck my finger in the fluid, it was definitely hot and couldn't keep it submerged very long. The metal high pressure line that comes out of the pump and goes by the driver side head definitely gets too hot to touch...do I need to go back to the stock water to water cooler? When it's whining an you turn the wheel lock to lock you can feel the vibration / chatter in the wheel. Eventually it will start doing it hot or cold as that was the case before they replaced the rack.

thanks for reading, please give me your best guesses now. Dropping the car off again tomorrow morning for them to troubleshoot...

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Yea, there is nothing wrong with the cooler. It really just is a tube with fins.

Are you sure it's the P/S system? Does the sound change with the position of the steering wheel?

Are they re-using your pump pulley each time? Those things can also make noise...

zfastss

iTrader: (6)

yes 99% sure it's the ps system. I forgot to mention I also replaced the original tensioner pulley when the 1st bad pump was done. The whine/groan becomes more pronounced when you turn the wheel and you can definitely feel it in the steering wheel. They are re-using the pulley, but there are no signs of damage to the pulley, and all groves in the pulley for the belt are perfect, and there is no wobble that I can see, so I believe it is seated correctly.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

I'd still spray some water on the pulley, just for ***** and giggles. It shouldn't hurt anything.

1 FMF

iTrader: (1)

that is a clear sign of air passing through the power steering pump, which may cause cavitation which then leads to higher fluid temperatures.
normally all you need to do is idle the engine with front wheel off the ground, and cycle the steering lock to lock to get air to move up and out of the system.
visually understand what is where in the power steering system, and know that it's a power assisted rack- it's just a piston having more fluid pressure on one side or the other which makes the wheels turn. fluid does not flow through the rack, to give you an idea if your wheels were turned all the way in one direction the piston in the rack will be to one side and you'll initially have a huge pressurized air bubble in there. as the wheels turn and that piston moves back and forth in the rack the air eventually makes it way back up the hydraulic line to the steering gear where the air can than flow on the return line back to the power steering pump reservoir. getting that to happen might be easier said than done. i know from experience having flushed my power steering completely last summer including moving the rack disconnected to squirt old fluid out, that you can try to cycle the wheels off the ground and everything is quiet and smooth but when you go drive you get chatter and groan. i experienced it for about 20 seconds while driving but it cleared and i have been fine for the last 7k or so miles since last summer. when you continue to have problems, i believe the next step is placing a vacuum on the power steering reservoir while having front wheels off ground cycling steering lock to lock, and this reduced pressure on the reservoir will help draw air out of the system. that only works of course if the rest of the power steering is 100% with no leaks.
and it's not abnormal to have ps fluid in the reservoir to be at 200°F, which will burn you. with the oem power steering cooler which is using engine coolant normally at 190°-210°F the power steering fluid is going to be at that temperature regardless. it's when ps fluid goes above 250°F that you need to start worrying about possible pump and seal damage.
since i've undone my oem power steering cooler, i've measured reservoir temp to be 160°-180°F in the summer at 80°F outside after driving home from work, about 20 miles. if you're concerned about ps fluid temp, go buy a $10 digital thermometer from the kitchen dept at walmart. you can dip it in the reservoir and know exact temperature to help troubleshoot.

zfastss

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for the great explanation 1 FMF. I stopped by the dealer as they're keeping my car on the lift until we can figure this out and had a long discussion. I convinced them that it can't be the derale cooler. We did find wetness around some of the fittings at the rack but they are saying it's just residue from the install, but we did notice that one of the hard lines from the new rack is pressed up tight / rubbing on the black plastic alternator vent. Their theory is that this has rubbed/worn a tiny hole through the line and when it heats up and expands, it's letting fluid out and air in. Has anyone else had issues with the hard lines rubbing against the alternator vent? I've included some photos.
Fortunately they still had my old stock rack and we compared the bends in the hard lines from the gear to the piston chamber and while they are somewhat similar, they are not exact. The new rack seemed to have larger bend radiuses and very slightly different angles. They said the rack was ordered based on my VIN which is a true SS (I'm the original owner). I looked on AC Delco's site and their pictures match up exactly with what they installed. One thing that has me wondering though is the label on the rack says "...remanufactured for AC Delco, 054 A5 26105544". I'm assuming 26105544 is the GM part number but I can't match this up to anything online or my factory parts manual, but the box does indeed have the GM/delco sticker with 26062311 on it which should be the correct number.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

^ This is a new one for me.

We just had another member getting some cavitation/kick-back in the system from a loose tie rod, so I'd think a rack problem like this could do it.

The stock power steering cooler is on the cool side of the radiator, so I'd expect that the temps would be lower than the 190-210 radiator inlet temperatures. I recall the last time I measured them, I didn't get a reading above 170.