ezss

My car has been at JD's auto repair now since last monday. I took the car there because Joe Prince @ JPR recommended taking it there, saying that JD is handling the install portion of his business now. As many of you know, I have had problems with the car since day one with the new engine. It dynoes well, but it smokes like a **** going down the track and I can not get good times out of it, it seems to have a loss of power in the upper rpm band, and just feels flat. Before the 388, best ET 11.87 @ 118, after breakin and exactly the same setup I go to atco and I cannot get the car to run faster than 116mph trap times (and slower ETs too). I thought it was just that I was a bad driver, and the clutch is tricky, but at that time it was working fine.

Back and forth with JPR, changed cams, changed cylender heads, changed injectors (twice), multiple retunes, LS6 oil management system, new rockers, the list goes on and on. The original project budget was $5500, went up to $7500, and now I have over $12k into the car's motor this year alone. I paid for everything, except I was given a break on the second cam install. Now I am told it will take $5-6k to get my car running again because of the following:
1. collapsed lifters, five (5) of them. I have never heard of Comp R racing lifters collapsing
2. glazed cylender walls -- JD says they look like a very old car's, and had to be re-honed (work already done), which will require new forged pistons and new piston rings (which were apparently shot anyhow). Stretched rods, which initially said would require new rods, but now apparently are salvageable
3. rework needed on cylender heads, with only 1500 miles on the heads, they need to be reworked for $300.
4. recommends going to solid roller and lifters because hydraulic will not hold up to 7k rpm.

They are telling me this is because i overreved the motor (at 7k rpm?! this is the rev limiter on nearly every h/c out there, and I have doublesprings,yella terra rockers, hardened pushrods, comp R lifters, forged internals, and every upgradeable part imaginable). I believe it to be a setup issue, I do not understand how you can collapse that many lifters and do the damage that was done any other way.

They are also telling me this is because I upgraded to 42# injectors from 36# (car wouldnt even start), which was done at JDs recommedation because JPR had no opinion on why my car appeared to running out of fuel in the upper rpm band on the dyno. The computer was sent in, without ever moving the car (it wouldnt start, bogged right away) once the injectors were put in to Bryan Herter, who did the tuning at JDs and both JD and Bryan said it should not be a big deal to make this adjustment. I autotapped the car when i got it back and it ran, found it to be running very rich still, and adjusted the tuning with a MAF Translator until it went back on the dyno again. Anyhow the injectors are cited as the reason why the cylenders are screwed up, the rest of the damage from overreving.

My theory? Valvetrain set up wrong, too much preload or some other issue, collapsed the lifters and the valves would not open all the way, forcing unburnt gas back in the cylenders, causing excess crankcase pressure and the oil problem (which incidentally the last time I ran they kicked me off the track for the huge cloud of smoke I took down the track, and oil was everywhere in my engine bay, pooled on the airfilter, on my strut tower bar, pooled in the intake, everywhere.) I wouls appreciate other people's thoughts that are more technically oriented than myself on how all of this could have happened.

Either way, I cant see how I should have to pay all this additional money on top of the $12k into the motor just to get me up and running. The car has been there two weeks, Joe prince apparently works for JD now, and neither of them will give me any kind of break or special consideration under the circumstances. I have tried to contact JPR, but he has not called,emailed me or anything and he knows from JD also that I have been urgently trying to get in touch with him.

I am at my wits end here, I cannot afford to keep the car as it is, and now Im asked to spend 5-6k just to get it back to where it was supposed to be in february?!?

I offered to make deals, for instance I have said I can justify in my mind (even this is pushing it) to pay for new pistons, rods, etc...if the engine is upgraded with a stroker crank to a 427. The parts for this come out to $4k (with JDs markup), but for some reason it will cost me close to $8k to make this change. I said I would do $5k everything included in light of the situation, but thats not workable apparently.

I have video, timeslips, and every email every passed between JPR and myself, and it looks like I am going to need it if I have to file suit. This has been the single worst automotive experience I have ever had, and the entire process along with the fact that I cannot afford to keep the car any longer because of balooning debt to pay for all this, has really left a sour taste in my mouth for the LS1 modification scene.

It looks like I am getting out. If anyone wants to make me an offer on the car as is, or has suggestions on how to get it fixed maybe using a stock motor, let me know. It can be a 427 soild roller setup with another 5-8k into it that should see north of 500rwhp/500rwtq NA. All specs and mods on my webpage:
www.erikz.org I will possible part it out, depending on who is interested in what, with dibs going to members of the SLFBA, my car club. This saddens me greatly, I have always wanted a camaro, I have camaro posters and hundreds of camaro miniature cars, tons of camaro memoriobilia, etc... that will require some redocoration/relocation in my house.

Thank you JPR for standing behind your work

JoeyGC5

iTrader: (24)

Man, all I can say is I hope it works out for you in the end.

When the dyno was done, what did the graph look like?

ezss

the graphs are all on my webpage, the link is (cut and paste)
http://www24.brinkster.com/ezerner/b1camdyno.htm

I hope it works out too, but honestly at this point I have given up hope.

Krazy98Z28

iTrader: (12)

Its hard to believe that Joe didnt back up his work. I dont think your at fault for anything, considering this was his new 388. I think you need to talk to Joe himself and discuss what hes gonna do to make this better. If anything he should split the cost of parts with you and eat his labor.

How many miles on this setup now ???

BADSS

iTrader: (7)

I like Joe Prince, but unless there is more to this story than what you are telling us....that's just wrong. He should stand behind his work- was there no warranty given on your engine? Did you ever spray it with nitrous?

ezss

I have tried, he has not gotten back to me and he is looking at the car everyday there at JDs.

First problems I reported at about 1500 miles, and have been reporting continously all the way up to the present. The car has now 8000 miles on the new motor and has obviously deteriorated worse.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Who built the motor?
When was the last time you talked to that person?
You have put 6500 miles on it?
How much is it getting overbored now?

glhs379

iTrader: (1)

I hope it all works out for you Eric,

I really hate when engine builders and tuners don't
stand behind the work they do,

Especially with all the money you spent at JPR.

LOnSLO

iTrader: (15)

Sounds like a local shop from down here. $8K for $4K worth of parts, etc, etc. Telling you that a rebuild is in order after only 6500 miles?!?!?! Cylinder walls are already glazed? The fuel injectors are to blame for this? Sounds like a load of total BS to me.

foff667

iTrader: (2)

kinda is making me think twice about even getting my TC installed over there next week now...pretty sad if they dont take care of customers that put over 10 grand in buisness towards them.

CHRISPY

This should all be WARRANTY work. You shouldn't be paying a cent.

What color is the smoke?

If it is white smoke you likely dropped a sleeve(s)

Did you tune after the bigger injectors?

If you have had these problems all along it needs to be covered by the builder, not out of your own pocket!

jmX

Hopefully we can hear JPRs side of the story soon? Sounds like a pretty bad situation.

ezss

No nitrous ever on the car, always been NA. I like him as well, he and his wife have been over to my house. I dont know what else to do at this point, other than to try legal action.

MrWS6

man this all sounds pretty bad sorry to hear that. Joe did my engine install and did a great job but i haven't talked to him in quite a while. Hopefully he will chime in a clear this up. But i agree from what you are telling us you shouldn't be paying a cent!

gomer

iTrader: (13)

I remember reading one of your posts a while back where you were upset with the track performance and the smoking issue. JPR had chimed in on that post and said he'd help you out. I guess he never did come thru for you back then. I really hope he steps up and takes car of this.

samz28

did you inspect the oil often after the large injectors? You could have had gassy oil, really bad for break in, and it would most certainly "Wash" the rings. It's really important to dyno tune the air fuel (and street tune) so you're not running filthy rich, esp on a break in period.

I can imagine a car running 12:1 all the time, lol, the oil would be gassy in short time, esp if you in this kinda weather and theres significant cold enrichment time.

on my dub with super large injectors, and my laziness to tune, i deemed it necessary to swap oil bout every 300-500 miles, due to the fact i work so close to home and the air fuel was off the kilter rich esp during the open-loop cold start time frame. It doesn't take long to ruin your oil. Once its gassy, well you know the rest.

i've been hearing alot of scarey stories lately about tuners/installers not backing up there work. I might have to investigate more thoroughly the person that does the work on my mods sitting in the garage as i'd be bringing the car back to the tuner with the 9mm if i was at your point.

RESTOMAN

Joe Prince here,
First, i didn't really read your opening post because I have a clue where this is going but to clear some things up, here is the scenario.



1. 1 JPR 388 all bore ARE heads and a single pattern 232 cam = 450 RWH AS PROMISED!

You wanted more power, I replied with "change the ARE heads out for a real set"

You responded with: "I want to change the cam".
I replied: "those heads will never sustain the higher power level your looking for"


You said "well think of a cam that will elevate my power level and the ARE heads are the last thing I want to change"

I came up with a 236 single pattern cam to go in place of your 232 cam.

You called and told me you bought a Lunati 242 cam from a sponsor after I specifically told you NOT to buy a Lunati grind and i didn't okay the 242 lobe either.

We installed the 242 cam and it only made 4-7 RWH and lost 4-7 RWT over your 232 cam, so what does that tell you? the ARE heads won't respond correctly, and I knew that before you bought the 242 after I told you that a 236 was the MAX.


You changed out 2 sets of injectors without backing it up on the dyno with mail order tune and keep complaining that black smoke is pouring out of the back of your car and I replied: "It's gonna keep on doing that untill they are tuned in on the wide band, you drove the car more and changed another set of injectors in the inturum STILL without confiming on the dyno and mail order again.



You mentioned your were going to put an LS6 oil valley pan in the motor and I told you don't attempt it because I don't want you doing internal work on your own motor because it only takes a small amout of aluminum shaving that has to be removed from the block to damage parts in the motor ie lifters, bearings etc etc. At that point I place a set of JPR ported S2's on your car without any other changes and picked up app 30 more RWH and brought the torque back up to par.



You raced the car out of tune, and what added to problems was your clutch was never adjusted correctly and you were missing gears at high RPM';s I was there, Tom was there Dennis Bob and others from LS1tech.


I heard from the machine shop the you stretch the journal side of your new rods for over reving the moptor from missing gears, most of all the lifters were collapsed or destroyed.


You did your own motor work.
You were calling the shots on how your car was going to be built, 2 sets of injectors and your new cam selection.
You came here for a leak down test and passed in the high 90% range but the cylnders are glazed down from fuel wash, (oil consumption) and there is no sign of cross hatch left.


More later,


Joe P.

ezss

The sleeve cant drop, its an integrated darton block. Also the motor is apart now and other than the glazing the cylenders seem to be intact. The smoke is bluish, and lots of it, coming out of the tailpipes. It was not there before the install, and I dont care what anyone says it should be there after.

Tuning -- at JD's recommendation, because MY AF was going well over 13 in the upper rpm band, we changed the 36 pound injectors to 42# ones. The 42# were done at my friends garage. After the install, the car wouldnt start, it was too rich and bogged. So I sent the PCM to Bryan herter (who did the original tune at JD's) and he made the adjustment, without ever moving the car or forcing the issue. Then I atap the car and see it is still too rich (but seems to run fine), and I adjusted the AFs with a MAFT until it could get back on the dyno.

The car has a lot of miles on it because I was forced to commute with it 60 miles a day for a while when it was my only car. This car used to be my daily driver. Most of the miles, I drove it on the highway at 65mph in 6th gear at low rpm during these problems, and went as easy as I could on it on the street. It was driving fine under normal driving conditions, but even on the street at WOT smoke would billow out of the back. I had comments from numerous people on the way to SLP day this year in our 20-24 car caravan that every time I got on it it would billow smoke.

RESTOMAN

Erik-

I Have Dynoed The Car For You Several Times For Joe Prince And Have Not Seen Any Problems With Smokoing On The Dyno.

I Have Never Heard You Complain Of Smoking When You Were Here For Dyno's Either---

I Recommend The 42lb Injectors For You Because The 36lb Ones You Had Were Not Enough--look At The Dyno Sheets.

Please Stop Bad Mouthing Joe--i Have Explained To You In About 20 E-mails Now What Happened--

1-cylinder Bore Wash Down
2-valvetrain Damage--overevving
3-rod Ends Enlagred--too High Rpm--overrevving

When You Are Hard On A Car Which Is A Machine---it Can And Eventually Will Break.
It Was Designed By Gm To Have Say 300rwhp And You Are Pushing It To 475rwhp---that Is Alot Of Stress,whether Aftermarket Partsor Not.

Please Understand--joe Is Not Backing Out Of Any Warranty Work
He Can't Warranty Misuse---he Would Go Broke!!!!

Thanks
Joe Dutkiewicz

Shop Owner

ezss

You should read it, and all the emails I sent you, and listen to your phone messages. I wanted something to be worked out, I wanted you to actually fix the problems I had with the car from the get go, which was the smoke coming out of the back of the car from day 1.

[QUOTE=RESTOMAN]
The deal was you would rework the ARE heads, because my budget was limited. Done. Did I want to keep them? No, but that was all I could afford at the time. You recommended the cam, then we agreed to go larger, but I had to order the cam myself because you werent going to.

I was happy with 450rwhp, the only reason I changed the heads is because you convinced me that not only would I make more power, I would also not have the smoking car issue. All along that was my main concern, over and over I brought up the same thing, I said the car is not enjoyable to drive when its smoking like this, its embarassing and I cant believe that nothing is wrong with it.

one set was changed at the dyno, you changed them, they were scaled and tuned in on the dyno. When that still didnt do the job (because that was never the problem) the 42lbs went in and the car never went anywhere before the pcm was sent in to be adjusted, as i have previously mentioned.

I was asking you for months to do this converstion, you were supposed to do it when the car went in for your heads, but your forgot. I did it locally, using a 30 year experienced mechanic, who did the work to the "T" from ls1howto.com, because of this. I didnt want to, you left me no choice, I had to try and solve the smoking problem somehow, sooner than 8 months. I will forward you all the emails where I asked for this to be done if you cant remember that part either.

The clutch was a new problem that happened recently. I have been granny shifting every since I had that clutch, my rpms drop way down between shifts. I never raced the car out of tune, I would not even think about doing that, so that statement is just not true. You didnt see a problem when tommy ran the car at the track because he ran a 15 with it and wasnt on it. Ask Mr.b, who was there, if the car was or wasnt smoking like crazy on my passes going down the track. How does this explain how 6 months earlier at atco with clutch working the same as it was last year I couldnt do better than 11.89 @ 116 with clean shifting? That was on the stock injectors.

How is 7000rpm overrevving? Everyone and their brother on this site and elsewhere run these engines that high on the limiter. I was trying to shift around 6700-6800rpm.

I trusted everything to you, I only jumped in to order parts when you left me hanging, with the cam and the injectors.

Again, please read the emails I have sent you, give me a call, anything, I want to work this out, and I will back off if I feel you are willing to work with me.