stage 3 heads. which are the best
12-27-2003, 03:07 AM
#1
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stage 3 heads. which are the best i know that this has been talked about many of times but somethings dont match up. now i have read of lots of people arguing about that there heads are better for what ever reasons but i want to know the truth. is it true that you get what you pay for? well i know that peak flow numbers dont mean everything but they do give a good idea of just how good the heads really are. now after a little studing i found three heads that people like to run and the numbers go like this.
1. patriot performance LS6 style stage 3 heads, 320cfm, $2000, no core
2. Tea stage 3 6.0L heads, 335cfm, $2500, +core charge (not sure on exact price)
3. GTP 5.3L stage 3 heads, 340cfm+, $3000, +core charge
i know that there are many other heads out there but these 3 are the ones that i have seen argued about the most this month. now if you will study the complete flow graphs of these heads you will also see that the more expensive heads also have better low lift numbers. now i dont know what yall think, but this shows me that you do get what you pay for. patriot has an awsome price on there stuff but i do see that there flow numbers are alot less the more expensive heads. also GTP seems to be the better head since they can beat all of the other guys flow numbers and not even have to use a LS6 style head to do it. just imagine what they can do on one of those heads. TEA seems stuck in the middle because they CNC there heads to keep the price down but use an awsome judson port to get there numbers up there. personaly, i am not in favor for any single company since everone has there pros and cons but if i were to guess, i would say that you really do get what you payed for. after reading all the post about people fighting over which heads are better i also heard the same things deap in my mind. bacically, patriot people keep saying how good of a deal they were getting for $2000. GTP people said just look at the real numbers and forget price. and TEA people had a bit of both, price and numbers. hummmmmmm very intereasting. i have thought about buying each one of these heads at one time or another but after all the arguing, i have decided that porting my own heads and seeing how far i can get with it is my best choice. i will call then SMP (SteveMartinezPerformance) stage 1 heads. hehehehehe.
1. patriot performance LS6 style stage 3 heads, 320cfm, $2000, no core
2. Tea stage 3 6.0L heads, 335cfm, $2500, +core charge (not sure on exact price)
3. GTP 5.3L stage 3 heads, 340cfm+, $3000, +core charge
i know that there are many other heads out there but these 3 are the ones that i have seen argued about the most this month. now if you will study the complete flow graphs of these heads you will also see that the more expensive heads also have better low lift numbers. now i dont know what yall think, but this shows me that you do get what you pay for. patriot has an awsome price on there stuff but i do see that there flow numbers are alot less the more expensive heads. also GTP seems to be the better head since they can beat all of the other guys flow numbers and not even have to use a LS6 style head to do it. just imagine what they can do on one of those heads. TEA seems stuck in the middle because they CNC there heads to keep the price down but use an awsome judson port to get there numbers up there. personaly, i am not in favor for any single company since everone has there pros and cons but if i were to guess, i would say that you really do get what you payed for. after reading all the post about people fighting over which heads are better i also heard the same things deap in my mind. bacically, patriot people keep saying how good of a deal they were getting for $2000. GTP people said just look at the real numbers and forget price. and TEA people had a bit of both, price and numbers. hummmmmmm very intereasting. i have thought about buying each one of these heads at one time or another but after all the arguing, i have decided that porting my own heads and seeing how far i can get with it is my best choice. i will call then SMP (SteveMartinezPerformance) stage 1 heads. hehehehehe.
12-27-2003, 06:53 AM
#2
I would go with TEA or GTP out of the 3 vendors you listed. I think the TEA 6.0 head with the Judson port is going to be tough to beat for the money. Since your head and cam choice is going to determine how much power you make, I wouldn't go cheap on either. 
Bruce
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12-27-2003, 07:20 AM
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Stage 3 on a H/C car isn't a good idea. they are meant for Big Bore motors. You will go faster on a set of Stage 2 heads for a H/C combo. Check out Absolute Speed heads as well. His heads are consistantly putting down great numbers on the dyno as well as on the track.
12-27-2003, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Hardtop
I would go with TEA or GTP out of the 3 vendors you listed. I think the TEA 6.0 head with the Judson port is going to be tough to beat for the money. Since your head and cam choice is going to determine how much power you make, I wouldn't go cheap on either.
Bruce
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12-27-2003, 09:04 AM
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I would caution you about making a decision based on published FLOW numbers. Flow numbers could vary dramatically between one flow bench and another. I can't tell you how many times I was told for instance that a head flowed OVER 300 to see it actually flowed quite a bit less than that when put on a flow bench (278 in one case!!! LOL).
From a consistency standpoint heads that are produced on a CNC machine will produce much more consistent numbers from head to head. This of course is GOOD if the ORIGINAL set of heads the CNC program is based on flowed well to begin with.
You will NOT get the absolute best flowing head by buying one that is CNC'ed either BUT if the CNC program is good it is very debatable whether or not a hand finished and ported head is worth the addtional money.
Case in point, GTP heads stage 3 heads for about 3,000 are a VERY good set of heads and quite frankly used to be the only game in town if you wanted a really good set of LS1 heads. Compare that now to say a set of Patriot CNC 'ed heads and about a THOUSAND dollars LESS. Is the GTP head worth the extra money???? Well, IMO NO, because you may make 3-4 HP MORE with a set of GTP's but at a premium of $1000.00
The BEST strategy may be to take a set of CNC'ed heads and have them hand finished and then REFLOWED to see if any improvements were made comparing that to the baseline flow set you hand prior to the hand finishing.
On a side note, on a STOCK bore LS1, it is VERY VERY difficult to get a legitimate 310 flow on the intake side. MOST of these 320-330 flow numbers are attained using 2.055 and 2.08 intakes on a larger bore motor (stage 3 heads which as been stated are a waste on a stock bore motor). I am NOT saying 320 ISN'T possible on a stock bore motor, it's just it is VERY VERY rare and requires ALOT of work. SAM down in Houston spent literally hundreds of hours getting a head to flow 326 on a stock bore motor (3.905) and they considered this a breakthrough.
From a consistency standpoint heads that are produced on a CNC machine will produce much more consistent numbers from head to head. This of course is GOOD if the ORIGINAL set of heads the CNC program is based on flowed well to begin with.
You will NOT get the absolute best flowing head by buying one that is CNC'ed either BUT if the CNC program is good it is very debatable whether or not a hand finished and ported head is worth the addtional money.
Case in point, GTP heads stage 3 heads for about 3,000 are a VERY good set of heads and quite frankly used to be the only game in town if you wanted a really good set of LS1 heads. Compare that now to say a set of Patriot CNC 'ed heads and about a THOUSAND dollars LESS. Is the GTP head worth the extra money???? Well, IMO NO, because you may make 3-4 HP MORE with a set of GTP's but at a premium of $1000.00
The BEST strategy may be to take a set of CNC'ed heads and have them hand finished and then REFLOWED to see if any improvements were made comparing that to the baseline flow set you hand prior to the hand finishing.
On a side note, on a STOCK bore LS1, it is VERY VERY difficult to get a legitimate 310 flow on the intake side. MOST of these 320-330 flow numbers are attained using 2.055 and 2.08 intakes on a larger bore motor (stage 3 heads which as been stated are a waste on a stock bore motor). I am NOT saying 320 ISN'T possible on a stock bore motor, it's just it is VERY VERY rare and requires ALOT of work. SAM down in Houston spent literally hundreds of hours getting a head to flow 326 on a stock bore motor (3.905) and they considered this a breakthrough.
12-27-2003, 05:15 PM
#7
sr71bb - VERY WELL SAID! 
You can quickly get into trouble when comparing peak flow numbers of various cylinder heads on different flow benches. There are also different ways to flow a cylinder head that will affect the flow numbers. For instance, TEA will flow the exhaust of their cylinder heads using a stack, and that will certainly produce higher flow numbers. I'm not saying that it's wrong at all. I'm just illustrating one of many ways that different flow techniques can affect the end numbers. You also have to look at the different flow benches used. From the flow numbers we've seen, those numbers published using a 600 Superflow will typically be 7-8 cfm more than numbers published from using a 1020 Superflow. We use a 1020 bench to flow our cylinder heads, and we've seen lower numbers quite a few times on cylinder heads that were flowed on a 600 bench. Patriot also uses a 1020 Superflow, and their numbers were dead-on when we flowed them on our bench. Flowing the cylinder heads on a larger bore will also produce higher numbers.
My point is that comparing flow numbers using different benches and different flow techniques is just like trying to compare dyno numbers. You'll get nowhere quick! It's meant to be a tuning tool, so if you flowed a stock cylinder head on the same bore with the same flow technique and then flow it on the same bench, same bore, and same technique after porting and polishing, then you can compare the numbers. Comparing these peak numbers flowed on benches across the country can be very misleading, so I don't recommend taking much faith in them. Also consider all of the flow numbers. If you look at the peak flow numbers on a set of stage II 5.3L heads and stage II LS6-style cylinder heads, there are only a few cfm difference on a stock bore. However, look at the mid-lift flow numbers, and it can be 10-12 cfm more. Put it on a larger bore, and you'll really see them shine!
That's my $.02, so take it for what it's worth. Feel free to give me a call if you have any questions. We offer both Patriot Performance and TEA cylinder heads.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
You can quickly get into trouble when comparing peak flow numbers of various cylinder heads on different flow benches. There are also different ways to flow a cylinder head that will affect the flow numbers. For instance, TEA will flow the exhaust of their cylinder heads using a stack, and that will certainly produce higher flow numbers. I'm not saying that it's wrong at all. I'm just illustrating one of many ways that different flow techniques can affect the end numbers. You also have to look at the different flow benches used. From the flow numbers we've seen, those numbers published using a 600 Superflow will typically be 7-8 cfm more than numbers published from using a 1020 Superflow. We use a 1020 bench to flow our cylinder heads, and we've seen lower numbers quite a few times on cylinder heads that were flowed on a 600 bench. Patriot also uses a 1020 Superflow, and their numbers were dead-on when we flowed them on our bench. Flowing the cylinder heads on a larger bore will also produce higher numbers.My point is that comparing flow numbers using different benches and different flow techniques is just like trying to compare dyno numbers. You'll get nowhere quick! It's meant to be a tuning tool, so if you flowed a stock cylinder head on the same bore with the same flow technique and then flow it on the same bench, same bore, and same technique after porting and polishing, then you can compare the numbers. Comparing these peak numbers flowed on benches across the country can be very misleading, so I don't recommend taking much faith in them. Also consider all of the flow numbers. If you look at the peak flow numbers on a set of stage II 5.3L heads and stage II LS6-style cylinder heads, there are only a few cfm difference on a stock bore. However, look at the mid-lift flow numbers, and it can be 10-12 cfm more. Put it on a larger bore, and you'll really see them shine!
That's my $.02, so take it for what it's worth. Feel free to give me a call if you have any questions. We offer both Patriot Performance and TEA cylinder heads.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
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12-27-2003, 06:05 PM
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D(irecto)r Pepper
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Excellent posts here folks.
I hope you guys are paying attention.
1. Stage 3 heads are a huge waste of money on a standard bore 346. (3.9")
2. Comparing advertised flow numbers to someone elses is just asking to get burned.
3. Not all flow numbers are comparable to another companies because they could be using different; flow bench's, different ways of taking flow readings. Different castings, valves and bores.
Conclusion: Make damn sure you are comparing apples to apples when you make your decision to buy a premium set of heads.
I hope you guys are paying attention.
1. Stage 3 heads are a huge waste of money on a standard bore 346. (3.9")
2. Comparing advertised flow numbers to someone elses is just asking to get burned.
3. Not all flow numbers are comparable to another companies because they could be using different; flow bench's, different ways of taking flow readings. Different castings, valves and bores.
Conclusion: Make damn sure you are comparing apples to apples when you make your decision to buy a premium set of heads.
12-27-2003, 06:37 PM
#9
What cubic inch are you going to run? 6.0L? If this is the case I would run a stage 1.5 or stg 2 head. Stage 2.5 and 3 are reserved for power adders or bigger engines. I just had a friend put a set of our stg 1.5 heads on a 382 but with a 2.05 valve and it picked up 85 ft lb of torque over the same head on a 346 and 2.02 valve. You need to get the chamber opened up to the 4.000" bore on which ever head you do. It is worth several cfm and RWHP. I made a post comparing our stg 1.5 5.3 heads vs our 2.5 LS6 heads and the power only came up 10 RWHP on motor, but then it came up 90 RWHP on the spray. So you can see the big flowing heads with the bigger valves really shine on the bigger engines and power adder combos.
Also, to refresh what our Stg 2.5 is, it is simply the 2.08 Judson program shrunk .030" and then a 2.05 valve put in it. This program on a 3.900" bore my LS6 head flowed 320 @ .600" and on a 4.030" bore it flowed 325 @ .600" but I left my chamber at 3.900" The same program on a 6.0L head flowed on the same 3.900" bore only flowed 309 @ .600" but then it flowed 324 @ .600" on the 4.030" bore. So you can see that the bigger 6.0L chamber overhanging the smaller bore really upsets the flow.
The other difference in all of this is how the head is hand finished after its all CNC and valve jobed. We generally just blend the seat into the bowl and send it out the door. But now we are offering this "hand finish to competition level". I personally completely hand finish all of the ports and chambers, so you are assured of getting the absolute best flow and power, CNC consistency with hand porting finish work, it costs an additional $250 but is well worth the money. That being said our Stg 2.5 and Stg 3 heads go out the door at around $2000 with LS1 style valves. The 5/16 stem racing valves and bronze guides adds about another $400 to the price, but flows about 10 cfm more air with the better valve shape. Good luck on your SMP heads
Also, to refresh what our Stg 2.5 is, it is simply the 2.08 Judson program shrunk .030" and then a 2.05 valve put in it. This program on a 3.900" bore my LS6 head flowed 320 @ .600" and on a 4.030" bore it flowed 325 @ .600" but I left my chamber at 3.900" The same program on a 6.0L head flowed on the same 3.900" bore only flowed 309 @ .600" but then it flowed 324 @ .600" on the 4.030" bore. So you can see that the bigger 6.0L chamber overhanging the smaller bore really upsets the flow.
The other difference in all of this is how the head is hand finished after its all CNC and valve jobed. We generally just blend the seat into the bowl and send it out the door. But now we are offering this "hand finish to competition level". I personally completely hand finish all of the ports and chambers, so you are assured of getting the absolute best flow and power, CNC consistency with hand porting finish work, it costs an additional $250 but is well worth the money. That being said our Stg 2.5 and Stg 3 heads go out the door at around $2000 with LS1 style valves. The 5/16 stem racing valves and bronze guides adds about another $400 to the price, but flows about 10 cfm more air with the better valve shape. Good luck on your SMP heads
12-27-2003, 08:25 PM
#10
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well so none of you get cunfused, i totally understand how anyones stage 3 heads is a waste of money on stock bore but that is not what i am running. i am running a 4.040 bore 6.0L block with a 3.71 crank (380CI). also it is going to see tons of spray so i also put that in the factor. this is why i think that a set of stage 3 heads are for me. i also under stand that comparing flow numbers is a waste of time and i was only using them because noone that i know of has had all of these heads at once and flowed them the same way on the same bench. if someone will, then we will all know the truth but untill then me will just have to trust the guys flowing these heads not to cheat.
Brian, i accually called you and talked to you about my combo and you also told me that i need your judson 6.0L heads. right now i have 2 sets of heads. 5.3Ls and a set of 6.0Ls. right now, i am going to install ferra 2.02/1.57 valves in the 5.3L, unshroud them to the 4.0" bore and port them myself. this will be without a flow bench ofcoarse but i am sure i can get them close to most stage 2 heads. i have ported plenty of heads in my life and understand what needs to be removed and what can stay. although i will also admit that i will never get my results as good as eather of these companys heads since you guys have way more R@D in head porting then i do. because of this, once i am able to get the money and once i am tired of my currant ETs, i am going to send the 6.0L for professinal treatment. more then likely, i think that your TEA judson ports are for me for the price. how much does it cost to get your 335cfms out of these and how low can you get the combustions chambers down to so i will not lose to much compression?
Kyle, my car is almost done. i already got the cam in and the 5.3Ls are almost finished. like i was saying before, i know that i can use a set of some really good stage 3 heads but i really would like to see how far i can go with my own head porting. maybe if i hit the number i want, i might just keep them on there. we will know around feburary to see how it runs. i am going to run the hell out of this motor just like i did on the 383 and 468 that was in the 69 maybe even harder so it is going to get very interesting this year LOL.
Brian, i accually called you and talked to you about my combo and you also told me that i need your judson 6.0L heads. right now i have 2 sets of heads. 5.3Ls and a set of 6.0Ls. right now, i am going to install ferra 2.02/1.57 valves in the 5.3L, unshroud them to the 4.0" bore and port them myself. this will be without a flow bench ofcoarse but i am sure i can get them close to most stage 2 heads. i have ported plenty of heads in my life and understand what needs to be removed and what can stay. although i will also admit that i will never get my results as good as eather of these companys heads since you guys have way more R@D in head porting then i do. because of this, once i am able to get the money and once i am tired of my currant ETs, i am going to send the 6.0L for professinal treatment. more then likely, i think that your TEA judson ports are for me for the price. how much does it cost to get your 335cfms out of these and how low can you get the combustions chambers down to so i will not lose to much compression?
Kyle, my car is almost done. i already got the cam in and the 5.3Ls are almost finished. like i was saying before, i know that i can use a set of some really good stage 3 heads but i really would like to see how far i can go with my own head porting. maybe if i hit the number i want, i might just keep them on there. we will know around feburary to see how it runs. i am going to run the hell out of this motor just like i did on the 383 and 468 that was in the 69 maybe even harder so it is going to get very interesting this year LOL.
12-27-2003, 09:07 PM
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Tag......Based on your 4 inch bore, I would go with 2.055 or 2.08 intakes and 1.60 exhaust becauuse of the juice with the chambers opened up for the 4 inch bore as Brian already indicated.
Raughammer.....Excellent post. You ought to write Cliff's Notes or something!! LOL That is it EXACTLY!!!!
Raughammer.....Excellent post. You ought to write Cliff's Notes or something!! LOL That is it EXACTLY!!!!
Last edited by sr71bb; 12-27-2003 at 09:16 PM.
12-27-2003, 10:53 PM
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good info from this post. i know that TEA and GTP are the heads to beat. i personally am going with the S3 from GTP. expensive?sure worth it? definately! i like how GTP is not all over this board ranting how they FLOW 3xx cfm and make XXX hp. Go to their website and you will read:" dont take our word for it, let the times speak for themselves ". and i think GTP has done this time and time again. and like Taqwache said, this is outta a 5.3L head. that is impressive in my book. i could have bought any head, the reason i chose GTP was because how craig took time out to explain in detail what his heads consist of and what i can expect.
IMO, you cannot cut corners when it comes to buying a head. not saying the less expensive brands are not good, they are just not good for what i am building. good luck on whatever you decide.
IMO, you cannot cut corners when it comes to buying a head. not saying the less expensive brands are not good, they are just not good for what i am building. good luck on whatever you decide.
