Bill00Formula

iTrader: (4)

With all this talk of problems just wondering the initial results of the new process. Kind of toying with this idea since I have motor problems anyway.

Thanks, Bill

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Steve (not MTI but you get my point) posted he has at least 5 Darton Wet's on the street and none have issues.

I'm not aware of any Darton Wets at this time that have had issues.

Nasty N8

iTrader: (33)

I have seen a few on the street and none with issues yet.

Nate

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

As long as the MID install was done by an experienced/reputable place with the proper equipment, there should be zero issues with the block.

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Bear, how's your setup going?

MTI

We have been working daily on producing the new Darton sleeve blocks. Every block completed has been thoroughly pressure checked without issue. The step that these sleeves sit on will not allow them to drop. The wet sleeve design with the thickness of the sleeve should also allow for minimal (if any) "shadowing" of the bore after the engine is broken in and offer maximum concentricity of the entire bore.

Warbird

Have you run any of these MID Blocks with a power adder? I have heard the wet sleeve is not as strong over 500+ hp as a dry sleeve. Power adders will increase cylinder pressure dramatically and I can't see these block holding up. I could be wrong but the inherent design weakness on a free floating sleeve held in place only by the heads concerns me. Seems to me a blown headgasket, bolt failure etc and the whole thing comes apart.

I know my dry sleeve block can handle the power and is also an interlocking design.

MTI

MTI has just begun to assemble & test these new engines. I feel that a power adder will work very well with these sleeves as they are far thicker than what we were using in our dry sleeve set-ups. They also circulate water directly around the firing ring which should help in keeping any specific hot areas from forming anywhere in the top of the sleeve. Time will tell on how they will perform with big power adders.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

On the new Darton MID/wet set up, what water pump is suggested? What coolant? Are studs a good idea with MID set ups & power adders?

Enough boost/NOS can blow up anything.

Steve - Race Eng

iTrader: (1)

Regarding coolant, pumps, etc. for the MID sleeves. We (Dave and Gary of Darton, and myself co-inventors of the MID sleeves) did considerable research and testing before we came out with the recommended coolant and pump combination.

Evans coolant, either NPG + or the new NPG R are the only coolants we recommend for use. Reason for this is the MID kit changes the original dry sleeve engine into a wet sleeve design where the sleeve is directly exposed to the engine coolant, just like a heavy duty diesel engine. Cavitation is a problem in diesel engines which is why diesel engine manufacturers all specify coolant additives that are designed to minimize cavitation in diesel engines. I did not feel making everyone become a chemist, mixing additives in the proper ratios and so forth was the way to go. The Evans coolants are cavitation resistant, are used straight with no mixing required. Another plus is you need only run a 7 pound pressure cap which takes a big load off the hoses.

The NPG + is good to 40 below zero. The new NPG R is rated to ten below zero. The NPG R is also slightly less viscous, and has better heat transfer properties than the NPG + coolant. Boiling point of the NPG R is close to 400 degrees. I don't recommend anyone try running an engine that hot! The high boiling point eliminates the possiblity of localized steam pockets forming in heads. Steam pockets = no cooling at that location which leads to detonation.

One of my good friends and clients has been running Evans coolants in his off road race vehicles for at least a dozen years. If anyone can kill a motor this guy can. I've taken apart engines for rebuild that ran continuously for hours at 300 degrees that had absolutely no damage from heat. This stuff works!

I took a stock and MID sleeved block and heads to Caldwell Developments for coolant flow testing. Evans also ran coolant pump tests so we could compare results. The stock GM pump was found to drop coolant flow to the right bank by about half over 5,000 rpm. The Evans pump provides much more even coolant flow to both banks. A further benefit is much larger bearings and shaft are fitted. A slightly smaller pulley (provided) turns the pump slightly faster for better cooling at low rpm.

Evans currently requires a core for rebuilding. They will have brand new pumps available soon - no core required. There are several dealers in the states that can provide coolant and pumps, etc. myself included.

There are a couple of choices for head gaskets. Fel Pro 1041 work fine for normally aspirated or engines that are limited to ten pounds of boost. Cometic recently came out with a new MLS gasket for use with the MID kits. A few of my clients have these on order but no engines have yet run with them as far as I know. I now machine all blocks after sleeve installation with a finish compatable with the Cometic gasket.

Cometic uses a spring steel face in their gasket design. This face will help seal the block, head interface even if the head lifts off the block a bit as it is bound to do on a high output engine. Best fasteners would be studs but in most cases you will be unable to remove the head with the engine in the car. Therefore aftermarket bolts, ARP, etc. would be better suited to a street engine. Retorque is highly recommended after first run with the engine cold.

Regarding the strength of the sleeves. The sleeves are the last thing that will break in the engine. The Honda and Ecotec MID sleeves have been out for at least a couple of years. The late John Lingenfelter ran the MID sleeves in his Ecotec Cavalier. This car ran high sixes in the quarter, developing in excess of 1,250 HP from a two liter four cylinder engine. That's 300 + horsepower per much smaller cylinder than the V-8. I know he broke valves and was able to rebuild the block simply by replacing the damaged sleeves.

I have attached a couple of photos showing machine work in progress on my CNC. The first block is an LS1 in the process of removing the remaining original cylinder wall. The second block is a Ferrari 308 block I am sleeving larger. Note the use of coolant. Without coolant and the proper order of machining the block will distort. A new block, never run, must be stress relieved. I always rough out a new block, have it stress relieved, then do the finish machining. They will not stay straight otherwise.

I read another post on the dry sleeves being out of round. Lack of coolant during machining along with insufficient aluminum left in the block to support the sleeves have much to do with them going out of round.

Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development

I wish one of the administrators would get back to me on where to send the check for sponsoring the site. I got info on the pricing but no one ever told me where to send the check even though I have e-mailed several times.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Steve - sent ya a PM

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Stephan is the MAN for the MID setup. He's gonna do mine

If you talk to Stephan you'll realize how sweet this setup really is. He answered ALL of my 10,000 questions and I keep asking, he keeps replying.

Reckless

iTrader: (9)

Steve....I will let Tony Whatley (Nine Ball) know you are interested in sponsoring

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

I let PSJ know. See PM.

We do appreciate your willingness to explain the big bore stuff to us.

PaiN

ttt

Larry