sr71bb

iTrader: (3)

I am been very amused lately by accusations of someone copying someone else's design especially in regards to head design. EVEN if that were true, what real difference does it make???? Head designs are not PATENTED secrets nor could they be. Products eventually will stand up or fail based on their OWN merits. They really is NO such thing as an original thought anyway when you think about it.

Just think a couple of years ago, if you wanted a great set of heads, you went with GTP for about 3K. Essentially there was very little competition at the time. Then people like TEA and Absolute Speed come in later and we are starting to get some VERY nice heads in the 2K-2.5K range. Patriot comes in now with some nice heads and then we get the pending arrival of AFR heads. Now think to yourself are we BETTER off because of all these choices???? Hellll yes!!!!

So thank god we have others willing to join the fray behind the ones who may have pioneered the way. We as consumers will vote with our money as to who will survive the head wars. Customer service and consistency will play a BIG role along with the PERCEPTION of who may have the best head for the money for our own application.

I think the ROLE we can play as consumers is to make aware others of our real results by posting in forums HERE. So if someone with just a head change can pick up 50-60 HP using a Patriot head or whatever I would like to know about it EVEN if I have something else.

monkeyboy

"are we better off??" depends on how you look at that question. if you are saying PP has better heads than GTP or TEA, my answer would be NO.

i think this was an unnecessary post you started. now you have opened pandoras box. here comes all the pissing and crying statments from PP,GTP, TEA users. i would like to see this post get locked asap before it gets outta hand again.

sr71bb

iTrader: (3)

Well monkeyboy, I guess you would prefer we have one vendor and all of us buy from the one. As far as this thread being locked, that's not your call. I am not here to defend anyone's heads. I could care less really. I was wanting to encourage to post real world results with their heads not DEFEND their head selection.

C4VetteLS1

If its not patented or illegal, then its perfectly fine to copy head porting or anything of the sort. Thats how buisness in this country works.

NicD

iTrader: (7)

agreed

Beast96Z

iTrader: (21)

Some people are just stuck on the fact that they can not get a good deal on something that costs less. If GTP's came out tommorrow for 1700 bucks, would they instantlly suck because they don't cost enough to be good? It's called buying in bulk. If GTP, TEA, or any other head porter had 4,000 sets of LS-6 heads sitting in there warehouse, they to could sell them for cheaper. The point is, is that they don't. I called many head porteds when trying to decide on my selection. Not a single one had LS-6 heads on hand. They would all have to order them in. How are you going to get a good deal on that? Now your stuck paying market value for a set of heads. So should Patriot be bashed for buying in bulk and providing a better deal? Hell no! I guess he should be bashed for coming up with a way to weld up the chambers on the 6.0 head to provide everyone a LS-6 "style" head for cheap to. Should the post be locked? I don't think so. If I can keep from ranting about certain vendors, I believe everyone else can to.

monkeyboy

GTP does have heads that are $1500.

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

You are only allowed to drive on our roads because you took a written test and a manual test of your driving skills, now you are allowed to drive.
So just because you have the abilities to buy a head doesn't make you a expert on the cylinder head industry.

People in the cylinder head porting industry understand that they are selling what either they invent or pay someone else to invent. Why do you think ethical companys like WeldTech, M2 and others approach people to buy their port designs or pay royalties, like they did me before I had my own CNC?? Bottom line is that it is unmoral and unethical to copy someones ports. Just because you can buy a head from someone does not give you permission to steal it. It is not illegal to do so, and ports are very hard to patent. If one of my competitors had a better port then me, I would not steal it, I have better morals then that. I may try to beat it and then digitize that, but that is not stealing a port. When someone does steal port designs they are in effect bypassing the expensive R&D phase of development. They will get what is coming to them in the end.

gomer

iTrader: (13)

Since I know this is going to get locked I'll go ahead and let it rip. Brian Tooley is a ******* crybaby and has really felt the strain of patriot taking over the LSx head market. Instead of porting heads or trying to make cost improvements, he'd rather come on the internet and start **** that has no basis.

What amuses me most is that all of this "copycat" bullshit came out about a week after TEA found out that SUMMIT RACING will be selling patriot's heads starting in Feb/March.

This is DIRECTLY to Brian, if you are SO convinced that your "design" has been copied, by all means do something about it besides bitching on the internet... I for one am tired of it clogging up a tech board.

Draco

I fail to see how the cylinder head industry is different from any other industry. Look at what AMD has done with Intel's x86 processor architecture. Instead of coming up with their own microprocessor instruction set, they jumped on the x86 bandwagon. Look at what EVERY SINGLE PC vendor has done since the introduction of IBM's first personal computer.

I am sure you realize that when you are an industry leader, you need to keep pushing the envelope, or offer something above and beyond what your competitors do if the product itself becomes the same. No industry is immune to commoditization - this is one of the pitfalls of capitalism.

When an industry leader is faced with the commoditization of its product(s), they have three choices:

1. Adapt (improve the product, service, or value that you offer),
2. Move (find a new niche), OR
3. become extinct.


Please note I am not trying to flame you and I sympathize with your plight - I do agree that a pure copy of your work is both discouraging and morally wrong.

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

No basis? Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and BET ME some money that some of the PP ports are not a poor copy of mine.

Really?? Thats news to me, how would I have heard that?? I have been approched my Jegs to do the same, so what.

I was done bitching a week ago, and I have done something about it. Our 5.3 Stg 1.5 head on a A4 car just made 480 RWTQ, they removed a GM LS6 ported head and replaced it with ours. At some places on the torque curve the the car is up almost 100 lb ft of torque!

Someone brought up their welded up 6.0 heads earlier in this post and what they have done there is ingenious. I had the opportunity to but those castings but I didn't. I didn't have the ability to machine all six sides flat and put holes in them or reheat treat welded up castings. But what Terry did was simply find someone that could and then he ports them. That is the type of creativity the industry needs. But the power the heads are going to make is dependent on how well they are hand finished, and thats where we have the advantage right now. So don't think for a second that any of this is about any thing other then me getting raped of my port designs, because it is that simple.

gomer

iTrader: (13)

Like I said earlier, if you can prove it, do it.. if not, get over it, get off the internet and go port some heads so your turnaround time will be under a month.

You are the one that started all this obsurdity and sponsor bashing last week, step up to the plate and prove you accusations with tangible evidence and data or STFU.

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

The people that are icons of the industry know what is up. Some people are untrainable. Why don't you get a set of the PP 5.3 heads and then bring them to my shop, that will shut you up, I guarantee that. I didn't even name a sponsor, until the cat was out of the bag, so how can you call it "sponsor bashing" when I didn't name a sponsor???? And since when did it take us a month to get someone LS1 heads?? More like a week or two! I try to be professional as possible but idiots like you try my patience.

jmX

Guys, I dont see any engine tech in here. The lounge is a better place to discuss these ethics IMO.

Copycatting is good for the consumer, bad for the guys designing the stuff and working hard to bring us better ports. Where's the incentive to work hard eeking out 2 more cfm if they know somebody else can just copy it and sell it cheaper since they may have better suppliers or more money to work with.

Anyway, I'm gonna lock this one. If you guys want these threads to survive, I have a few suggestions.
1) Put it in the lounge, "Internal engine" is a tech section of this board.
2) Don't stir up **** between sponsors, talk about morals, ethics, whatever, fine, but if you're just here to stir up **** then its possible the thread will be locked because that is how the system works. I'd almost even suggest that TEA stay out of the post altogether, but its only because of all the people that come out of the woodworks with guns blazing once Brian Tooley shows up. If you have something VALID and FACTUAL to say about a sponsor, that is fine, we are not here to censor legitiamate issues....in fact, issues like that is why this board is here today! But sponsor vs sponsor battles or insinuations are not allowed.

Feel free to try again in the lounge.