stability/reliability for my new set up(?'s)
04-10-2011, 05:52 AM
#1
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stability/reliability for my new set up(?'s) guru's GTFIH.
so currently i am running bone stock 799's on top of a stock 2000 ls1 block. valvetrain consists of 224r, stock lifters, chromoly pr's, patriot dual springs, stock valves(also have a melling 10296 if that makes a difference).
my new build will consist of an EPS custom grind in the neighborhood of high 220's to mid 230's duration, and just north of .600 lift. the 799's are getting a valve job, milled to 60cc's, and ported and polished. for now i will be keeping the ls6 intake. for this build average hp, tip in/throttle response, reliability, and stability are the priorities.
my question's today are mianly concerning valvetrain stability.
-valves. should i go to hollow valves? i know they help stability at higher rpm's. are there any other benefits i could see on my app? (btw price doesn't concern me here)
-springs. i'm not even going to pretend to know where my open/closed load pressures should be at. someone help me here. also is there a way to run a single spring on .600 cam safely? point being to keep the weight down.
-retainers. titanium retainers are cheap enough, i would assume this is a no brainer.
-pushrods. i will need custom length pr's obviously, but besides that is there anything else i need to consider here?
-lifters. stock, ls7, cts-v, comp 850's, comp R's, morels? fuuuuuu i've heard good things about all of these, and ive heard bad things about some. not sure what to believe here. HELP.
-rockers. i know stockers are very light, and with the trunion upgrade can be quite durable. this is the option i'm leaning towards, however i know there are some great options out there for rockers like jesel. but jesel's are $$$$ and i'm fairly sure they aren't needed on my build.
-head bolts i have stock replacement bolts as of now, would it be worth the coin to upgrade to ARP? i wont be spraying or boosting this set up.
ok that is all.
so currently i am running bone stock 799's on top of a stock 2000 ls1 block. valvetrain consists of 224r, stock lifters, chromoly pr's, patriot dual springs, stock valves(also have a melling 10296 if that makes a difference).
my new build will consist of an EPS custom grind in the neighborhood of high 220's to mid 230's duration, and just north of .600 lift. the 799's are getting a valve job, milled to 60cc's, and ported and polished. for now i will be keeping the ls6 intake. for this build average hp, tip in/throttle response, reliability, and stability are the priorities.
my question's today are mianly concerning valvetrain stability.
-valves. should i go to hollow valves? i know they help stability at higher rpm's. are there any other benefits i could see on my app? (btw price doesn't concern me here)
-springs. i'm not even going to pretend to know where my open/closed load pressures should be at. someone help me here. also is there a way to run a single spring on .600 cam safely? point being to keep the weight down.
-retainers. titanium retainers are cheap enough, i would assume this is a no brainer.
-pushrods. i will need custom length pr's obviously, but besides that is there anything else i need to consider here?
-lifters. stock, ls7, cts-v, comp 850's, comp R's, morels? fuuuuuu i've heard good things about all of these, and ive heard bad things about some. not sure what to believe here. HELP.
-rockers. i know stockers are very light, and with the trunion upgrade can be quite durable. this is the option i'm leaning towards, however i know there are some great options out there for rockers like jesel. but jesel's are $$$$ and i'm fairly sure they aren't needed on my build.
-head bolts i have stock replacement bolts as of now, would it be worth the coin to upgrade to ARP? i wont be spraying or boosting this set up.
ok that is all.
Last edited by brian_rs/ss; 04-10-2011 at 06:26 AM.
04-10-2011, 05:01 PM
#3
-valves. lighter = better, but not crucial at your max predicted rpm.
-springs. look into the nitrided pac beehives. i know a few ppl using them with great success, shifting above 7k with aggressive cams. shim properly.
-retainers. titanium. the cost is def not worth a dropped valve.
-pushrods. hardened of proper length (stock diameter) will work fine. a thicker pushrod will only gain stability. would i use thicker prs? yes.
-lifters. ls7s are popular. i've personally seen a lot of locals here using them with great success on fast ramp rate cams even shifting above 7k.
-rockers. stock with trunion upgrade ftw. you already got it.
-head bolts. really the only advantage i've seen to arps were with gratuitous amounts of boost or n2o, and the fact that they are reusable. up to you, the stockers will work great on a h/c setup.
just remember that your attention to detail regarding the valvetrain is crucial to its longevity. i am a stickler and overkill on most everything i do. shimming the springs, checking wipe on the valve tip, choosing the proper length pr, degreeing the cam on install, etc. taking an extra 5 hours or whatever it takes to do everything right will pay off exponentially when the car runs great and is quiet as a mouse for thousands of miles. hope this helps. what year is the car? have you given thought to the rod bolts? i'd guess you won't be shifting over 6700 or so, but the insurance never hurts, especially when you've already done so much other work.
04-10-2011, 05:21 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
i'm no guru, but here is my unprofessional opinion:
-valves. lighter = better, but not crucial at your max predicted rpm. yeah and unless i can find ls6 valves used, it's not worth upping valve size to go hollow
-springs. look into the nitrided pac beehives. i know a few ppl using them with great success, shifting above 7k with aggressive cams. shim properly. ok will do!
-retainers. titanium. the cost is def not worth a dropped valve. agreed
-pushrods. hardened of proper length (stock diameter) will work fine. a thicker pushrod will only gain stability. would i use thicker prs? yes. ok, i'll try researching a little more and see if thicker is needed
-lifters. ls7s are popular. i've personally seen a lot of locals here using them with great success on fast ramp rate cams even shifting above 7k. ls7's would be ideal because of price, but should i worry about failure with these?
-rockers. stock with trunion upgrade ftw. you already got it.
-head bolts. really the only advantage i've seen to arps were with gratuitous amounts of boost or n2o, and the fact that they are reusable. up to you, the stockers will work great on a h/c setup. noted, thanks
just remember that your attention to detail regarding the valvetrain is crucial to its longevity. i am a stickler and overkill on most everything i do. shimming the springs, checking wipe on the valve tip, choosing the proper length pr, degreeing the cam on install, etc. taking an extra 5 hours or whatever it takes to do everything right will pay off exponentially when the car runs great and is quiet as a mouse for thousands of miles. hope this helps. what year is the car? have you given thought to the rod bolts? i'd guess you won't be shifting over 6700 or so, but the insurance never hurts, especially when you've already done so much other work.
-valves. lighter = better, but not crucial at your max predicted rpm. yeah and unless i can find ls6 valves used, it's not worth upping valve size to go hollow
-springs. look into the nitrided pac beehives. i know a few ppl using them with great success, shifting above 7k with aggressive cams. shim properly. ok will do!
-retainers. titanium. the cost is def not worth a dropped valve. agreed
-pushrods. hardened of proper length (stock diameter) will work fine. a thicker pushrod will only gain stability. would i use thicker prs? yes. ok, i'll try researching a little more and see if thicker is needed
-lifters. ls7s are popular. i've personally seen a lot of locals here using them with great success on fast ramp rate cams even shifting above 7k. ls7's would be ideal because of price, but should i worry about failure with these?
-rockers. stock with trunion upgrade ftw. you already got it.
-head bolts. really the only advantage i've seen to arps were with gratuitous amounts of boost or n2o, and the fact that they are reusable. up to you, the stockers will work great on a h/c setup. noted, thanks
just remember that your attention to detail regarding the valvetrain is crucial to its longevity. i am a stickler and overkill on most everything i do. shimming the springs, checking wipe on the valve tip, choosing the proper length pr, degreeing the cam on install, etc. taking an extra 5 hours or whatever it takes to do everything right will pay off exponentially when the car runs great and is quiet as a mouse for thousands of miles. hope this helps. what year is the car? have you given thought to the rod bolts? i'd guess you won't be shifting over 6700 or so, but the insurance never hurts, especially when you've already done so much other work.
the car is a 2000 with a little over 50k on the clock. once the tear down starts and we get an idea for how worn everything is i might say **** it and rebuild the whole bottom end. i'll have the money to do it but i'm not in a hurry to yank the motor. stock ls1 bottoms are pretty durable and i'de like to capitalize on that if i could.
build will also consist of: poly mounts, new clutch and fw, tick mc, full suspension, 17" street lites and new rubber. if i budget myself just right i may be able to throw a 12 bolt at it. fingers crossed.
04-10-2011, 06:24 PM
#5
with regard to the ls7 lifters...i've seen about a 1:1 ratio of failures due to over revving...for every lifter that failed i've seen a rod that stretched. these instances the engine saw a mechanical overrev of 7800+ rpm. one friend of mine with an automatic has 30k+ miles on his ls7 lifters using an aggressive cam and has seen prob 50 bottles worth of a 175 shot haha - 6500 shiftpoint and 6700 limiter that has been visited a lot - rebuilt in his apt with arp head studs and katech rod bolts, nothing special. another friend of mine shifts his 370 at 7300 on those lifters.
04-10-2011, 06:29 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
with regard to the ls7 lifters...i've seen about a 1:1 ratio of failures due to over revving...for every lifter that failed i've seen a rod that stretched. these instances the engine saw a mechanical overrev of 7800+ rpm. one friend of mine with an automatic has 30k+ miles on his ls7 lifters using an aggressive cam and has seen prob 50 bottles worth of a 175 shot haha - 6500 shiftpoint and 6700 limiter that has been visited a lot - rebuilt in his apt with arp head studs and katech rod bolts, nothing special. another friend of mine shifts his 370 at 7300 on those lifters.
04-11-2011, 03:30 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
http://www.pacracing.com/Street_Stri...Set_of_16.html
ok these are the PAC nitrided springs. good to .650 lift, load @ 1.8"= 130 lbs, load @ 1.15"= 337 lbs, spring rate 313 lbs/in, spring weight 64g.
where as the PAC duals read as such. .650 lift, load @ 1.77"= 135 lbs, load @ 1.12"= 400 lbs, spring rate 307 lbs/in, spring weight 101.7g <---that's as heavy as solid steel intake valve. was unaware lol.
what you guys think?
ok these are the PAC nitrided springs. good to .650 lift, load @ 1.8"= 130 lbs, load @ 1.15"= 337 lbs, spring rate 313 lbs/in, spring weight 64g.
where as the PAC duals read as such. .650 lift, load @ 1.77"= 135 lbs, load @ 1.12"= 400 lbs, spring rate 307 lbs/in, spring weight 101.7g <---that's as heavy as solid steel intake valve. was unaware lol.
what you guys think?
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04-11-2011, 04:06 PM
#9
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the PAC nitired springs are a great spring,
we used em on all of the (late model) hemi heads i was apart of.
however, i reccomended checking this out:
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showth...light=nitrided
PAC had a batch, possibly more of defective springs. this was caused by this nitriding process because the 1218's were unaffected.
supposedly theyre all good now, and aware of the issue with the batch, but i would be weary about who you get a set from and how long they have been on the shelf (more so exactly when they got on the shelf)
there were a few hemis and supposedly a few LSx cars with failures around this time i was told from the 1518's.
still wouldnt hesitate to use that spring now that PAC knows they had an issue with a batch
we used em on all of the (late model) hemi heads i was apart of.
however, i reccomended checking this out:
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showth...light=nitrided
PAC had a batch, possibly more of defective springs. this was caused by this nitriding process because the 1218's were unaffected.
supposedly theyre all good now, and aware of the issue with the batch, but i would be weary about who you get a set from and how long they have been on the shelf (more so exactly when they got on the shelf)
there were a few hemis and supposedly a few LSx cars with failures around this time i was told from the 1518's.
still wouldnt hesitate to use that spring now that PAC knows they had an issue with a batch
04-11-2011, 04:51 PM
#10
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good info man, thanks! and i'm glad that i found these springs, now i'm no longer limited to .600 lift 
i might have pat spec me out one of his big *** torque cams 
and i wont be purchasing parts for a while. my deployment isn't up until september. but when i do purchase i'll make sure that i am shipped a good batch.
still need an answer on those ti retainers. i'm pretty sure they will work but i'm not positive.
i might have pat spec me out one of his big *** torque cams and i wont be purchasing parts for a while. my deployment isn't up until september. but when i do purchase i'll make sure that i am shipped a good batch.
still need an answer on those ti retainers. i'm pretty sure they will work but i'm not positive.
04-13-2011, 04:29 AM
#11
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so it looks like i just found myself a full sef of NIB ls6 valves 
now i just need a cam.
oh and i still need to know which ti retainers/locks to use with the 1518's. anybody?
now i just need a cam.
oh and i still need to know which ti retainers/locks to use with the 1518's. anybody?
