Another cam selection thread
09-01-2012, 05:43 PM
#1
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Another cam selection thread I know there are 10 cam threads a day but most have a cam in mind. I also know that I can call the vendors and get their recommendation but I feel that I am wasting their time if I plan to shop around and possibly buy used. So here is what I am looking for.
Going into a LS6 CTS-V with drop in filter, possibly headers, cat back, dual springs, trunion bearing upgrade. Motor has 24K so I doubt I will do anything with the heads.
Great low end power not too concerned with top end
Good idle with a little lope is OK but not tons.
This is my DD
Thanks
Going into a LS6 CTS-V with drop in filter, possibly headers, cat back, dual springs, trunion bearing upgrade. Motor has 24K so I doubt I will do anything with the heads.
Great low end power not too concerned with top end
Good idle with a little lope is OK but not tons.
This is my DD
Thanks
09-01-2012, 09:19 PM
#4
Comp Cams has a nice shelf grind you should like, #54-455-11, 215(lsl .604")/223(lsl .610") 112+5.
http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/...lsa-4-8l-5-3l/
http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/...lsa-4-8l-5-3l/
09-02-2012, 12:44 AM
#7
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Correct. Not looking for HP numbers just something that comes on strong. I rarely wind the car up but have been known to leave a stop light in a hurry.
I appreciate the inputs so far !
I appreciate the inputs so far !
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09-02-2012, 02:23 AM
#9
You can't be afraid of an early EVO and that's what adding exhaust duration does. Adds torque after peak and helps carry it through to peak horsepower.
Now if you look at the first and the second camshaft the first has an ivo of -1 and an ivc of 43. The earlier the ivo event the more drivable the cam will be and the sooner the cylinder fill process starts. The earlier the ivc the sooner that cylinder fill is trapped creating more dynamic pressure in the cylinder. This creates more low end torque than a later event. The second has -6 ivo and 44 ivc a very early IVO and a decent ivc to help carry some(6200-6400) peak horsepower higher into the curve.
Now move to the exhaust side. The earlier you open the exhaust valve the sooner you start to blow down the cylinder and start the power stroke. Done at the proper time in conjunction with the ivo and ivc you can hang the torque curve out much further and longer than a later evo.
Adding some overlap in while keeping an early IVO only adds to broaden the torque curve. Although a lot of overlap is not what you're really after here in this application.
There's a lot more too it than looking at numbers and saying that is a big hp cam.
09-02-2012, 02:15 PM
#11
Martin&Tick, Like I said before, Both of those are good smog/dd cams, but I wouldn't have picked either of those considering his statement, "Great low end power not too concerned with top end".
that's what I focused on; that's all.
"How is one cam 222/226 in duration and the other 218/230 in duration focused on top end horsepower?"
Their not, I didn't say they were, but clearly they don't classify as "Great low end power" cams.
So don't you think a cam with less intake duration and a tighter lsa would give him the "Great low end power" he wants?
I do appreciate you explanation, thanks!
Ron
that's what I focused on; that's all.
"How is one cam 222/226 in duration and the other 218/230 in duration focused on top end horsepower?"
Their not, I didn't say they were, but clearly they don't classify as "Great low end power" cams.
So don't you think a cam with less intake duration and a tighter lsa would give him the "Great low end power" he wants?
I do appreciate you explanation, thanks!
Ron
09-02-2012, 06:32 PM
#13
A 222/226 cam is absolutely tiny. I'm assuming the car already has the typical ls6 cam in it (not positive the caddy came with the same cam) so I really don't see the point of a cam swap if you're not going with at least a 220 single pattern. I would go with a 222/226 on a 112 at the minimum.
09-02-2012, 09:42 PM
#14
You guys have got to get past looking at it has to have this lsa it has to have this duration to do what you want.
Take a look at what valve events and cam timing does to a motor.
A cam with 214 intake duration on a motor with 3.622" stroke will peak at 5800rpm and even sooner with a 110icl. It will never even begin to start to make any torque in the 4000-5000rpm range before you're neutering it with intake duration. Start the IVO event sooner to promote more cylinder fill and add overlap with exhaust duration to broaden torque while leaving the IVC in the 43-45 range. It's a combination of events not just one event that makes a motor make power where you want it. This is just for this application every application will be different.
A tight lsa will make a higher peak number but will make the curve peakier in return. If you're looking to make a number by all means go for it, but it won't carry power throughout a usable rpm range after peak torque to peak horsepower. Power(torque) that you can feel pull the car along from 2000rpm all the way to horsepower peak not just once in the power curve.
You have to stop looking at @.050 numbers and it needs this LSA and this much advance to run like the customer wants. Play with valve events until you get the opening and closing numbers you want then find a lobe suitable for the grind. I don't do this everyday just for fun, it's my job. I'm not trying to mislead you, only teach what you should and shouldn't do. Not very many cam grinders will openly share theories, but if it's not listened to or heeded as advice then it doesn't really matter I guess.
A LS6 cam is no comparison to a 222/226 cam. A LS6 cam is 204/218 far from 222/226.
Take a look at what valve events and cam timing does to a motor.
A cam with 214 intake duration on a motor with 3.622" stroke will peak at 5800rpm and even sooner with a 110icl. It will never even begin to start to make any torque in the 4000-5000rpm range before you're neutering it with intake duration. Start the IVO event sooner to promote more cylinder fill and add overlap with exhaust duration to broaden torque while leaving the IVC in the 43-45 range. It's a combination of events not just one event that makes a motor make power where you want it. This is just for this application every application will be different.
A tight lsa will make a higher peak number but will make the curve peakier in return. If you're looking to make a number by all means go for it, but it won't carry power throughout a usable rpm range after peak torque to peak horsepower. Power(torque) that you can feel pull the car along from 2000rpm all the way to horsepower peak not just once in the power curve.
You have to stop looking at @.050 numbers and it needs this LSA and this much advance to run like the customer wants. Play with valve events until you get the opening and closing numbers you want then find a lobe suitable for the grind. I don't do this everyday just for fun, it's my job. I'm not trying to mislead you, only teach what you should and shouldn't do. Not very many cam grinders will openly share theories, but if it's not listened to or heeded as advice then it doesn't really matter I guess.
A LS6 cam is no comparison to a 222/226 cam. A LS6 cam is 204/218 far from 222/226.
09-02-2012, 10:12 PM
#15
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Thanks for another informative post. I looked on your site but did not see it listed. Did I miss it somewhere ?
You guys have got to get past looking at it has to have this lsa it has to have this duration to do what you want.
Take a look at what valve events and cam timing does to a motor.
A cam with 214 intake duration on a motor with 3.622" stroke will peak at 5800rpm and even sooner with a 110icl. It will never even begin to start to make any torque in the 4000-5000rpm range before you're neutering it with intake duration. Start the IVO event sooner to promote more cylinder fill and add overlap with exhaust duration to broaden torque while leaving the IVC in the 43-45 range. It's a combination of events not just one event that makes a motor make power where you want it. This is just for this application every application will be different.
A tight lsa will make a higher peak number but will make the curve peakier in return. If you're looking to make a number by all means go for it, but it won't carry power throughout a usable rpm range after peak torque to peak horsepower. Power(torque) that you can feel pull the car along from 2000rpm all the way to horsepower peak not just once in the power curve.
You have to stop looking at @.050 numbers and it needs this LSA and this much advance to run like the customer wants. Play with valve events until you get the opening and closing numbers you want then find a lobe suitable for the grind. I don't do this everyday just for fun, it's my job. I'm not trying to mislead you, only teach what you should and shouldn't do. Not very many cam grinders will openly share theories, but if it's not listened to or heeded as advice then it doesn't really matter I guess.
A LS6 cam is no comparison to a 222/226 cam. A LS6 cam is 204/218 far from 222/226.
Take a look at what valve events and cam timing does to a motor.
A cam with 214 intake duration on a motor with 3.622" stroke will peak at 5800rpm and even sooner with a 110icl. It will never even begin to start to make any torque in the 4000-5000rpm range before you're neutering it with intake duration. Start the IVO event sooner to promote more cylinder fill and add overlap with exhaust duration to broaden torque while leaving the IVC in the 43-45 range. It's a combination of events not just one event that makes a motor make power where you want it. This is just for this application every application will be different.
A tight lsa will make a higher peak number but will make the curve peakier in return. If you're looking to make a number by all means go for it, but it won't carry power throughout a usable rpm range after peak torque to peak horsepower. Power(torque) that you can feel pull the car along from 2000rpm all the way to horsepower peak not just once in the power curve.
You have to stop looking at @.050 numbers and it needs this LSA and this much advance to run like the customer wants. Play with valve events until you get the opening and closing numbers you want then find a lobe suitable for the grind. I don't do this everyday just for fun, it's my job. I'm not trying to mislead you, only teach what you should and shouldn't do. Not very many cam grinders will openly share theories, but if it's not listened to or heeded as advice then it doesn't really matter I guess.
A LS6 cam is no comparison to a 222/226 cam. A LS6 cam is 204/218 far from 222/226.
09-02-2012, 10:30 PM
#16
You guys have got to get past looking at it has to have this lsa it has to have this duration to do what you want.
Take a look at what valve events and cam timing does to a motor.
A cam with 214 intake duration on a motor with 3.622" stroke will peak at 5800rpm and even sooner with a 110icl. It will never even begin to start to make any torque in the 4000-5000rpm range before you're neutering it with intake duration. Start the IVO event sooner to promote more cylinder fill and add overlap with exhaust duration to broaden torque while leaving the IVC in the 43-45 range. It's a combination of events not just one event that makes a motor make power where you want it. This is just for this application every application will be different.
A tight lsa will make a higher peak number but will make the curve peakier in return. If you're looking to make a number by all means go for it, but it won't carry power throughout a usable rpm range after peak torque to peak horsepower. Power(torque) that you can feel pull the car along from 2000rpm all the way to horsepower peak not just once in the power curve.
You have to stop looking at @.050 numbers and it needs this LSA and this much advance to run like the customer wants. Play with valve events until you get the opening and closing numbers you want then find a lobe suitable for the grind. I don't do this everyday just for fun, it's my job. I'm not trying to mislead you, only teach what you should and shouldn't do. Not very many cam grinders will openly share theories, but if it's not listened to or heeded as advice then it doesn't really matter I guess.
A LS6 cam is no comparison to a 222/226 cam. A LS6 cam is 204/218 far from 222/226.
Take a look at what valve events and cam timing does to a motor.
A cam with 214 intake duration on a motor with 3.622" stroke will peak at 5800rpm and even sooner with a 110icl. It will never even begin to start to make any torque in the 4000-5000rpm range before you're neutering it with intake duration. Start the IVO event sooner to promote more cylinder fill and add overlap with exhaust duration to broaden torque while leaving the IVC in the 43-45 range. It's a combination of events not just one event that makes a motor make power where you want it. This is just for this application every application will be different.
A tight lsa will make a higher peak number but will make the curve peakier in return. If you're looking to make a number by all means go for it, but it won't carry power throughout a usable rpm range after peak torque to peak horsepower. Power(torque) that you can feel pull the car along from 2000rpm all the way to horsepower peak not just once in the power curve.
You have to stop looking at @.050 numbers and it needs this LSA and this much advance to run like the customer wants. Play with valve events until you get the opening and closing numbers you want then find a lobe suitable for the grind. I don't do this everyday just for fun, it's my job. I'm not trying to mislead you, only teach what you should and shouldn't do. Not very many cam grinders will openly share theories, but if it's not listened to or heeded as advice then it doesn't really matter I guess.
A LS6 cam is no comparison to a 222/226 cam. A LS6 cam is 204/218 far from 222/226.
Also installing a cam on a lower number ICL than a higher than advertised LSA will bring in torque earlier and build torque throughout the low RPM range. This is the same as looking at it through the degrees of IVO - the sooner it opens the more air and fuel mixture that is brought in - closing it late enough to get scavenging benefits from the exhaust duration really comes into play especially if the exhaust is not limited to efficiency in design or too large for the application.
09-02-2012, 10:50 PM
#17
I never said an ls6 cam was close to a 222/226, I know the specs of the ls6 cam. I said I didn't see the point of pulling an ls6 cam out for anything smaller than a 222/226. I was agreeing with what you had already said. You will never notice the tiny bit of bottom end that is lost by going with a decent cam.
09-03-2012, 12:22 AM
#19
Another way of wording it is that a wide LSA on a split ground cam will table top the top end of the HP curve for torque somewhere else in the power band based on the durations of the exhaust and intake valves for scavenging. The efficiency of the build in relation to the motor and user input is where mapping the valve events in specific degrees in relation to the TDC becomes even more beneficial.
Also installing a cam on a lower number ICL than a higher than advertised LSA will bring in torque earlier and build torque throughout the low RPM range. This is the same as looking at it through the degrees of IVO - the sooner it opens the more air and fuel mixture that is brought in - closing it late enough to get scavenging benefits from the exhaust duration really comes into play especially if the exhaust is not limited to efficiency in design or too large for the application.
Also installing a cam on a lower number ICL than a higher than advertised LSA will bring in torque earlier and build torque throughout the low RPM range. This is the same as looking at it through the degrees of IVO - the sooner it opens the more air and fuel mixture that is brought in - closing it late enough to get scavenging benefits from the exhaust duration really comes into play especially if the exhaust is not limited to efficiency in design or too large for the application.
I never said an ls6 cam was close to a 222/226, I know the specs of the ls6 cam. I said I didn't see the point of pulling an ls6 cam out for anything smaller than a 222/226. I was agreeing with what you had already said. You will never notice the tiny bit of bottom end that is lost by going with a decent cam.
I was hired to fill that void. I guarantee you will see plenty of dyno and track results coming from a lot of my cams soon. While it isn't rocket science, it does take knowledge that is nearly impossible to learn all on-line over night or even in months or years of time. There are endless variations of combinations even if they share many similarities every end user wants something different to a certain degree. Knowing what to do in each one of those situations is where it gets tough and then being able to think outside the box from time to time and deviate from the "norm". There sooner or later has to be a formal movement away from "one size fits all" camshafts even though that seems to of become accepted. While small degree swings of 1-3* here and there don't make much difference in peak numbers, there are always ways to draw more power each and every time out of each combination.
I'm just here to lend that hand and help the members here make a good decision on quite possibly one of the most important pieces of their engine.
Last edited by Sales@Tick; 09-03-2012 at 02:30 AM.
