Lq9/lq4 build and cam suggestions.
07-24-2013, 10:39 PM
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Lq9/lq4 build and cam suggestions. Guys here is what I have s far, I have an 02 escalade motor, I asked about the lq4 and lq9 because the guy I got the motor from originally said it was an lq4 but later mentioned he drove it and it was out of his friends escalade. I would like cam options and just general build suggestions that could work for both. I guess the cam stuff would be more engine specific so different cam combinations using what parts I already have would be nice. Ok the parts I have are the 6.0 short block block, ls6 intake, ls6 243 heads, ls6 ported oil pump, and 42 lb texas speed injectors. I am picking up the pulley set up saturday but wanted to get the cam kit next so I can get the valve job and springs replaced simultaneously to save time. My goals are a car that is streetable, durable, decent mileage, able to be driven distances, and as for hp and torque I would like somewhere around 450 (I know that might not be a real power goal power wise but what the hell) I want to know what companies have the best cam kits with proven dyno numbers and hopefully a similar build. The car its going in is a 69 camaro with a 4l80e trans and 373 or 391 gears. I posted earlier and got some good suggestions on short block prep, the answers were helpful and got me thinking that cam selection help would be awesome. Maybe there are some other things that would help my build that I have not contemplated, I saw an earlier post about using the edelbrock carb style intake with the fast efi system ( this was also suggested to me recently by another member here) I know some of you guys here live for this and I would really like guidance so any and all positive feedback is greatly appreciated. This weekend I plan to tear the motor down some to determine what exactly I really have. I guess my cam kit budget is around 550-600 max but still want the most bang for my buck. As far as budget on the top end and bolt on stuff I just want to stay moderately priced. If a set up makes sense and gets me closer to my goal I am willing to sell some of what I already have to fund the new stuff (only because I have been getting really good deals so far). I know I am a little all over the place with this thread but wanted some help, I dont want nitrous, but a charger or boost could be an option at a later time. Thanks again guys.
07-25-2013, 04:29 PM
#2
There some things you have to know about your block 1st.
1st have a shop look it over (Magnaflux) it and make sure it's a good block. It may need a hone, It may need more. Have them hot tank it and replace the cam bearings with new ones.
Your setup is very close to mine. I have have a Melling 10296 oil pump and different injectors. You'll need to upgrade your fuel pump. Racetronix sells a complete kit that is awesome for the price and easy instructions to instal.
My cam I went with Tick Performance Polluter Stage 3. I talked with Martin from Tick and was very happy with our discussion. He put together a cam & springs package. I already had the other stuff needed (push rods, oil pump)
Another company you can talk with is AI (Advance Induction) - very solid rep.
Both of these companies can help out as well as some of the other sponsors.
One more thing you need to plan on is tuning. Ain't cheap. Dyno tunes run about $500. You'll need it.
Your budget for a cam kit is going to need to be higher. Close to $1000.
Cams - going around $375, custom $430
Valve Springs - $290 for really good quality springs, remember if you cheap out here you'll regret later.
Trunnion upgrade to rockers - $125 (not required, but better then stock, see previous regret comment)
ARP bolts for the connecting rods - $95-$140, this is a major weakness on the con rods. It will require a hone on the rods to resize them for the arp tq specs.
The following items an engine shop will tell you what size to get or even order it for you:
Bearings - DO NOT REUSE THE OLD BEARINGS. Main & rod (+ cam if you get it hot tank) use Clevite T series bearings for the main. Also use Clevite for the rods.
Piston Rings - These will run around $110 or more depending on applications
There is some more but it takes knowing more of your plans/budget, etc...
1st have a shop look it over (Magnaflux) it and make sure it's a good block. It may need a hone, It may need more. Have them hot tank it and replace the cam bearings with new ones.
the parts I have are the 6.0 short block block, ls6 intake, ls6 243 heads, ls6 ported oil pump, and 42 lb texas speed injectors.
My cam I went with Tick Performance Polluter Stage 3. I talked with Martin from Tick and was very happy with our discussion. He put together a cam & springs package. I already had the other stuff needed (push rods, oil pump)
Another company you can talk with is AI (Advance Induction) - very solid rep.
Both of these companies can help out as well as some of the other sponsors.
One more thing you need to plan on is tuning. Ain't cheap. Dyno tunes run about $500. You'll need it.
Your budget for a cam kit is going to need to be higher. Close to $1000.
Cams - going around $375, custom $430
Valve Springs - $290 for really good quality springs, remember if you cheap out here you'll regret later.
Trunnion upgrade to rockers - $125 (not required, but better then stock, see previous regret comment)
ARP bolts for the connecting rods - $95-$140, this is a major weakness on the con rods. It will require a hone on the rods to resize them for the arp tq specs.
The following items an engine shop will tell you what size to get or even order it for you:
Bearings - DO NOT REUSE THE OLD BEARINGS. Main & rod (+ cam if you get it hot tank) use Clevite T series bearings for the main. Also use Clevite for the rods.
Piston Rings - These will run around $110 or more depending on applications
There is some more but it takes knowing more of your plans/budget, etc...
07-25-2013, 06:18 PM
#3
check EPS and Tick performance for cams.a ls6 intake mite limit your power a little .consider a bbk intake ,and sell your ls6 intake.port the heads if your budget allows.how many miles on the short block.consider a stroker kit if your current rotating dose not look good.
07-25-2013, 07:47 PM
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check EPS and Tick performance for cams.a ls6 intake mite limit your power a little .consider a bbk intake ,and sell your ls6 intake.port the heads if your budget allows.how many miles on the short block.consider a stroker kit if your current rotating dose not look good.
The shortblock has 130k on it, so you think the ls6 intake may hamstring me from getthing my goal? What about the victor jr efi set up? Would I gain more power with that? Whats the best place to get s stroker kits? I would love a stroker kit but its not just the price of the kit, it drives up the machining costs. How much power would stroking a 6.0 really yield? I wouldnt want to spend another 2k in parts for only 50 hp.
07-26-2013, 10:17 AM
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I checked online and found a few stroker kits, they are a little pricey but around what I first thought they would be. I just dont think that the extra coin is worth only 100 extra horse, just my opinion. I think 430-450 is plenty for my first ls build. What you guys think about that?
07-26-2013, 11:45 AM
#7
Like I said talk with Martin @ Tick.
Is it going to be a DD+street or track only?
The LS6 is a great intake for the money. Only intake better are FAST. I'd strongly stay away from the BBK intake. Many, many issues reported with their fitment. Some work just fine, while others ....
Since you're on a budget build I'd stay with what I recommended. Going stroker is a commitment. However you can get there in stages.
You can bore the cylinders out 0.030 over. Get new pistons to the new size (4.030") and still keep the stock con rods and crank. This will make you a 370ci build. Machine shop cost for this vary from shop to shop but should come around $200-$300. Now after you saved up some more $$$ you can later go get a stroker crank & rod kit.
One more thing I forgot to mention on my previous post. LQ4 pistons are dish, so this means even with 243 heads your looking at a 9.5 compression ratio. If you do what I did and get a set of LS2 (or LQ9's even) pistons that will bump up the compression to the high 10's. More compression = more HP. I picked up a used set here for $80.
Porting also will give you some HP gains.
You asked about the Victor Jr intake. More stuff required to make it all work. You'll need a 90* plume to angle the Throttle body fpr clearence.
To be dead honest getting to over 500 NA will be expensive and not to road worthy. Using FI different story. One other option to get over that 500HP mark is N2O. The right shot and tuning will give you power on demand. LQ blocks will handle it easy. N2O is probably the best HP gain for the least money.
ONE MORE MAJOR Question. Have you built up your suspension, rear and tranny to handle this much power you plan on? Over 400HP it's not if but when your 10 bolt will go.
Is it going to be a DD+street or track only?
The LS6 is a great intake for the money. Only intake better are FAST. I'd strongly stay away from the BBK intake. Many, many issues reported with their fitment. Some work just fine, while others ....
Since you're on a budget build I'd stay with what I recommended. Going stroker is a commitment. However you can get there in stages.
You can bore the cylinders out 0.030 over. Get new pistons to the new size (4.030") and still keep the stock con rods and crank. This will make you a 370ci build. Machine shop cost for this vary from shop to shop but should come around $200-$300. Now after you saved up some more $$$ you can later go get a stroker crank & rod kit.
One more thing I forgot to mention on my previous post. LQ4 pistons are dish, so this means even with 243 heads your looking at a 9.5 compression ratio. If you do what I did and get a set of LS2 (or LQ9's even) pistons that will bump up the compression to the high 10's. More compression = more HP. I picked up a used set here for $80.
Porting also will give you some HP gains.
You asked about the Victor Jr intake. More stuff required to make it all work. You'll need a 90* plume to angle the Throttle body fpr clearence.
To be dead honest getting to over 500 NA will be expensive and not to road worthy. Using FI different story. One other option to get over that 500HP mark is N2O. The right shot and tuning will give you power on demand. LQ blocks will handle it easy. N2O is probably the best HP gain for the least money.
ONE MORE MAJOR Question. Have you built up your suspension, rear and tranny to handle this much power you plan on? Over 400HP it's not if but when your 10 bolt will go.
Last edited by smws6ta; 07-26-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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07-26-2013, 04:49 PM
#8
I would assess the condition of the bottom end, and such. If it looks good, and you don't want to go through all the hassle of a rebuild, then don't. Toss in a cam and your LS6 parts and be done. No need for a stroker setup and forged this and that for 450hp. Don't worry about rod bolts. Their replacement causes more problems and potential problems then they are worth. They were only an issue on older Gen III engines too.
If your budget includes a rebuild, then do .030 bore and forged pistons and rods. Pick out a good mid-level cam to match the 243 heads and be done. No need for an aftermarket intake or anything of the sort. Keep it simple and easy. No need to make it harder than it needs to be.
If your budget includes a rebuild, then do .030 bore and forged pistons and rods. Pick out a good mid-level cam to match the 243 heads and be done. No need for an aftermarket intake or anything of the sort. Keep it simple and easy. No need to make it harder than it needs to be.
07-26-2013, 06:18 PM
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Like I said talk with Martin @ Tick.
Is it going to be a DD+street or track only?
The LS6 is a great intake for the money. Only intake better are FAST. I'd strongly stay away from the BBK intake. Many, many issues reported with their fitment. Some work just fine, while others ....
Since you're on a budget build I'd stay with what I recommended. Going stroker is a commitment. However you can get there in stages.
You can bore the cylinders out 0.030 over. Get new pistons to the new size (4.030") and still keep the stock con rods and crank. This will make you a 370ci build. Machine shop cost for this vary from shop to shop but should come around $200-$300. Now after you saved up some more $$$ you can later go get a stroker crank & rod kit.
One more thing I forgot to mention on my previous post. LQ4 pistons are dish, so this means even with 243 heads your looking at a 9.5 compression ratio. If you do what I did and get a set of LS2 (or LQ9's even) pistons that will bump up the compression to the high 10's. More compression = more HP. I picked up a used set here for $80.
Porting also will give you some HP gains.
You asked about the Victor Jr intake. More stuff required to make it all work. You'll need a 90* plume to angle the Throttle body fpr clearence.
To be dead honest getting to over 500 NA will be expensive and not to road worthy. Using FI different story. One other option to get over that 500HP mark is N2O. The right shot and tuning will give you power on demand. LQ blocks will handle it easy. N2O is probably the best HP gain for the least money.
ONE MORE MAJOR Question. Have you built up your suspension, rear and tranny to handle this much power you plan on? Over 400HP it's not if but when your 10 bolt will go.
Is it going to be a DD+street or track only?
The LS6 is a great intake for the money. Only intake better are FAST. I'd strongly stay away from the BBK intake. Many, many issues reported with their fitment. Some work just fine, while others ....
Since you're on a budget build I'd stay with what I recommended. Going stroker is a commitment. However you can get there in stages.
You can bore the cylinders out 0.030 over. Get new pistons to the new size (4.030") and still keep the stock con rods and crank. This will make you a 370ci build. Machine shop cost for this vary from shop to shop but should come around $200-$300. Now after you saved up some more $$$ you can later go get a stroker crank & rod kit.
One more thing I forgot to mention on my previous post. LQ4 pistons are dish, so this means even with 243 heads your looking at a 9.5 compression ratio. If you do what I did and get a set of LS2 (or LQ9's even) pistons that will bump up the compression to the high 10's. More compression = more HP. I picked up a used set here for $80.
Porting also will give you some HP gains.
You asked about the Victor Jr intake. More stuff required to make it all work. You'll need a 90* plume to angle the Throttle body fpr clearence.
To be dead honest getting to over 500 NA will be expensive and not to road worthy. Using FI different story. One other option to get over that 500HP mark is N2O. The right shot and tuning will give you power on demand. LQ blocks will handle it easy. N2O is probably the best HP gain for the least money.
ONE MORE MAJOR Question. Have you built up your suspension, rear and tranny to handle this much power you plan on? Over 400HP it's not if but when your 10 bolt will go.
I have a 12 bolt and yes I have upgraded my suspension. Tubulars qa1 coilovers sub frame connectors and I wasnt really done upgrading the suspension. The stroker kits look super promising just pricy to gain 50 horse.
Last edited by 69greyghost; 07-26-2013 at 06:24 PM.
07-26-2013, 06:21 PM
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I would assess the condition of the bottom end, and such. If it looks good, and you don't want to go through all the hassle of a rebuild, then don't. Toss in a cam and your LS6 parts and be done. No need for a stroker setup and forged this and that for 450hp. Don't worry about rod bolts. Their replacement causes more problems and potential problems then they are worth. They were only an issue on older Gen III engines too.
If your budget includes a rebuild, then do .030 bore and forged pistons and rods. Pick out a good mid-level cam to match the 243 heads and be done. No need for an aftermarket intake or anything of the sort. Keep it simple and easy. No need to make it harder than it needs to be.
If your budget includes a rebuild, then do .030 bore and forged pistons and rods. Pick out a good mid-level cam to match the 243 heads and be done. No need for an aftermarket intake or anything of the sort. Keep it simple and easy. No need to make it harder than it needs to be.
You kind of have hit it on the head. For me stroking or rebuilding seems like alot of trouble for only 50 hp. I like the idea of telling peeps I have a stroker but I may just check the bottom end and leave as is. Especially if the pistons are in good shape. Any idea what kind of mileage a stroker would get to the gallon or a motor with ls6 top end good performance parts and about 450 rwhp?
07-26-2013, 06:53 PM
#11
I would think (no direct experience) a stock bottom end engine would get better mileage than a stroker setup would. However, I have nothing to base that off of. I would look at it as a return on investment though. How much of that extra $3000 are you going to use when a good heads and cam setup can make what you are wanting to achieve? Also remember that $3000 is just an estimate and that is ONLY for the bottom end and machine work. The top end for that will be even more.
On the flip side, people have made well over 450whp with stock cubes and stock (but worked over) head castings. That will be a pretty sizeable cam and the needed stall to go with it. Aftermarket castings have 450whp and have a much milder cam turning the valves.
I would speak with Martin at Tick about their cam offerings. 450rwhp will be a tough job to make through a 4l80e and stall and 12 bolt. It will be even tougher without a pretty rowdy cam grind too.
On the flip side, people have made well over 450whp with stock cubes and stock (but worked over) head castings. That will be a pretty sizeable cam and the needed stall to go with it. Aftermarket castings have 450whp and have a much milder cam turning the valves.
I would speak with Martin at Tick about their cam offerings. 450rwhp will be a tough job to make through a 4l80e and stall and 12 bolt. It will be even tougher without a pretty rowdy cam grind too.
07-26-2013, 07:06 PM
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I would think (no direct experience) a stock bottom end engine would get better mileage than a stroker setup would. However, I have nothing to base that off of. I would look at it as a return on investment though. How much of that extra $3000 are you going to use when a good heads and cam setup can make what you are wanting to achieve? Also remember that $3000 is just an estimate and that is ONLY for the bottom end and machine work. The top end for that will be even more.
On the flip side, people have made well over 450whp with stock cubes and stock (but worked over) head castings. That will be a pretty sizeable cam and the needed stall to go with it. Aftermarket castings have 450whp and have a much milder cam turning the valves.
I would speak with Martin at Tick about their cam offerings. 450rwhp will be a tough job to make through a 4l80e and stall and 12 bolt. It will be even tougher without a pretty rowdy cam grind too.
On the flip side, people have made well over 450whp with stock cubes and stock (but worked over) head castings. That will be a pretty sizeable cam and the needed stall to go with it. Aftermarket castings have 450whp and have a much milder cam turning the valves.
I would speak with Martin at Tick about their cam offerings. 450rwhp will be a tough job to make through a 4l80e and stall and 12 bolt. It will be even tougher without a pretty rowdy cam grind too.
I will give him a call, what's a more realistic goal for hp and tq then and should I consider going t56 then?
07-26-2013, 07:49 PM
#13
Well I don't think 450whp is unrealistic, its just going to be harder to achieve with the LS6 parts you have through a stalled 4l80e. Should you swap to a t56? That's up to you and what you want to achieve with the car. If I remember correctly, you have to do floor mods on a first gen Camaro to put in a t56. However, it will dyno higher and cruise at a lower rpm on the highway if that's your thing.
What are you hoping to achieve with the car (be specific) outside of a certain dyno number?
What are you hoping to achieve with the car (be specific) outside of a certain dyno number?
07-26-2013, 09:30 PM
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Well I don't think 450whp is unrealistic, its just going to be harder to achieve with the LS6 parts you have through a stalled 4l80e. Should you swap to a t56? That's up to you and what you want to achieve with the car. If I remember correctly, you have to do floor mods on a first gen Camaro to put in a t56. However, it will dyno higher and cruise at a lower rpm on the highway if that's your thing.
What are you hoping to achieve with the car (be specific) outside of a certain dyno number?
What are you hoping to achieve with the car (be specific) outside of a certain dyno number?
Really I want a car that has good power, reliability, good street manners. Kind of a sleeper but an overall fun car to drive. I was shying away from a t56 primarily due to the fact that it would be more cost effective and less maintenance over time( no clutch replacement). I know the 4l80e is durable and really rugged. Plug it in and probably never have to worry for a really long time. Besides everyone and they're momma has a t56. I wanted to be a lil different.
07-26-2013, 09:41 PM
#15
Really I want a car that has good power, reliability, good street manners. Kind of a sleeper but an overall fun car to drive. I was shying away from a t56 primarily due to the fact that it would be more cost effective and less maintenance over time( no clutch replacement). I know the 4l80e is durable and really rugged. Plug it in and probably never have to worry for a really long time. Besides everyone and they're momma has a t56. I wanted to be a lil different.
I think in terms of your build, check out the bottom end for possible problems. If you see anything, pull it apart and hone the cylinders, put in new rings and bearings. Then look into a cam for your ls6 heads that will provide good midrange power. Try to optimize that instead and have fun with it.I like keeping things simpler if possible.
07-28-2013, 02:32 AM
#16
These guys have given you great advice already. For a 4l80e and 12 bolt to make 450rwhp without aftermarket heads and/or a fast intake will be a tall order. I can grind a cam that will do the job no problem, but it will be a big rowdy SOB.
Not very streetable, but with a good tune that someone spends the time on to make right it could drive very well.
The Polluter V.2 would probably make between 420-440rwhp in a 6.0 with ported 243's, LS6 intake, 80e and 12 bolt.
I have another cam grind I reserve for the bravest of the brave wanting to fly-cut and make some serious power cam only. Same cam went 6.30's@105 in my 3000lb. cam only Camaro.
Not very streetable, but with a good tune that someone spends the time on to make right it could drive very well.
The Polluter V.2 would probably make between 420-440rwhp in a 6.0 with ported 243's, LS6 intake, 80e and 12 bolt.
I have another cam grind I reserve for the bravest of the brave wanting to fly-cut and make some serious power cam only. Same cam went 6.30's@105 in my 3000lb. cam only Camaro.
07-28-2013, 09:25 AM
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These guys have given you great advice already. For a 4l80e and 12 bolt to make 450rwhp without aftermarket heads and/or a fast intake will be a tall order. I can grind a cam that will do the job no problem, but it will be a big rowdy SOB.
Not very streetable, but with a good tune that someone spends the time on to make right it could drive very well.
The Polluter V.2 would probably make between 420-440rwhp in a 6.0 with ported 243's, LS6 intake, 80e and 12 bolt.
I have another cam grind I reserve for the bravest of the brave wanting to fly-cut and make some serious power cam only. Same cam went 6.30's@105 in my 3000lb. cam only Camaro.
Not very streetable, but with a good tune that someone spends the time on to make right it could drive very well.
The Polluter V.2 would probably make between 420-440rwhp in a 6.0 with ported 243's, LS6 intake, 80e and 12 bolt.
I have another cam grind I reserve for the bravest of the brave wanting to fly-cut and make some serious power cam only. Same cam went 6.30's@105 in my 3000lb. cam only Camaro.
Thanks Martin, I appreciate your help with this issue. I think what I really want is a cam that sounds stock untilI hit a certain rpm range, say 2500-3000 rpm. That might not work with my power goals. But I would like to stay away from an oversized cam unless thats the only way I can even come close to my power goal.
