MS4, Trex, Which one for Me?
12-31-2013, 10:50 PM
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MS4, Trex, Which one for Me? I've done hours of searching, and theres simply way too many options and opinions. So I would like to narrow it down and get opinions between the Trex and MS4 cam.
Here's what Ive got, a 2000 LS1 that is going into my daily driver 91 T56 Camaro.
The motor is currently all torn apart awaiting on new bearings. So I want to throw a cam in it while the motor is out. I will install rear end gears to match the cam. I plan on getting a nice set of heads possibly next year.
My requirements
-Very aggressive Idle/Lots of lope
-Atleast 16 city MPG
-Something that I won't regret installing.
-Over 400rwhp full bolt on with the Cam
So does the MS4 or Trex cam sound like something I would be happy with? If not, what would you suggest? Sponsors your advice is greatly appreciated.
Here's what Ive got, a 2000 LS1 that is going into my daily driver 91 T56 Camaro.
The motor is currently all torn apart awaiting on new bearings. So I want to throw a cam in it while the motor is out. I will install rear end gears to match the cam. I plan on getting a nice set of heads possibly next year.
My requirements
-Very aggressive Idle/Lots of lope
-Atleast 16 city MPG
-Something that I won't regret installing.
-Over 400rwhp full bolt on with the Cam
So does the MS4 or Trex cam sound like something I would be happy with? If not, what would you suggest? Sponsors your advice is greatly appreciated.
12-31-2013, 11:18 PM
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I would do the pat g baby cam. 222/226. Cam made like 430 to the tire with gobs of torque and that was threw a automatic transmission. Only thing is you said you want lope and that cam there eat on a 115 lobe separation angle but I'm sure you could put that cam on a 110 setup and the cam will sound bigger than it really is.
12-31-2013, 11:41 PM
#4
I know the ms4 will require fly cutting the piston for safe piston to valve clearance .those cams need a great tuner .both will need valve springs replaced often .consider the ms3 or torquer v3 cam from TSP.or consider the bigger EPS cams .race cams are not fast on the street unless you have the whole car set up right .
12-31-2013, 11:56 PM
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Tick Polluter.
The reviews I've read of people switching from the 2 cams you mentioned, all gained power and torque, and were overall much happier with the driveability and performance of the cam.
It's just what I've read though, and it's what I'll be installing.
The reviews I've read of people switching from the 2 cams you mentioned, all gained power and torque, and were overall much happier with the driveability and performance of the cam.
It's just what I've read though, and it's what I'll be installing.
01-01-2014, 12:35 AM
#7
The MS cams work best in lightweight cars with a good top end and gears to compliment it. They're a max effort cam which needs all the right supporting mods in order to shine.
Both are older cams on lobes that are know to wear out springs a bit quicker. I honestly feel there are better choices. You said you've done a ton of research, I'm surprised you didn't come across all the new cams available that will give you the power and sound you're looking for.
Both are older cams on lobes that are know to wear out springs a bit quicker. I honestly feel there are better choices. You said you've done a ton of research, I'm surprised you didn't come across all the new cams available that will give you the power and sound you're looking for.
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01-01-2014, 09:30 AM
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either of these cams need a gear of 4.10 or higher in a m6 car. i have the trex in my car altho i have a 370 it was in a stock 346 before and it deff behaved much better with the 370 but a huge part is all in the tune. i am also running SD. with stock 241 heads and 1 3\4 headers it made 440whp 413 tq thru 4.10s. with the 346 i think it made around 410-420whp. my buddy has a ms4 cam and i dont like it at all in his 346. ms3 is a very nice cam for stock 346 my buddy had one in his 01 ss and it ran very hard. made 411 with that cam and exhaust thru 4.11s
01-01-2014, 10:49 AM
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Thanks for the input. I did keep reading that the technology behind the Trex and MS4 design was a little out dated, however those threads were old and no alternative camshafts were posted. I will research the cams you guys suggested above.
After reading the above posts, I am swaying away from the MS4 and Trex. Before I do so, here is my question.
How will the MS4 perform in my 91 Z28 with full bolt ons, T56, 4.10 gears and a great dyno tune?
Will another cam outperform it on the street such as the ones mentioned in above posts? I won't be doing freeway pulls or anything high speed. Mostly 0-80 pulls.
BrntWS6, can you elaborate?
After reading the above posts, I am swaying away from the MS4 and Trex. Before I do so, here is my question.
How will the MS4 perform in my 91 Z28 with full bolt ons, T56, 4.10 gears and a great dyno tune?
Will another cam outperform it on the street such as the ones mentioned in above posts? I won't be doing freeway pulls or anything high speed. Mostly 0-80 pulls.
BrntWS6, can you elaborate?
01-01-2014, 12:26 PM
#14
Your research is flawed and based on very old threads it seems.
First, the T-Rex cannot be purchased new. Thunder Racing went under some time ago. You can still order it from Comp or EPS, but that cam is over 10+ years old. It uses the XE-R lobes from Comp (an aggressive lobe, but one that makes power).
The MS4 is old as well and uses LSK lobes. Those lobes make more power than XE-R or anything else, but beat up a valvetrain. I would not recommend them for anything close to a daily driver. If it were a weekend strip car, you could do it. But you have to realize the valvetrain has to be setup to work with those lobes. I'll get to that in a moment.
As far as cams go, Tick has the SNS2 227/234 110 camshaft that will make great power under the curve with stock heads, sound good, drive well with a good tune, and generally make the car faster than the bigger cams without the supporting modifications (see aftermarket heads with smaller combustion chambers for a lot more compression).
I'd also recommend you upgrade to a FAST90/92. Buy one used to save some coin. Over an LS1 intake, they are good for 20-25HP. Budget heads are good for 35-40. So this would be a cheaper way to increase power without having to get into the expense or hassle of changing the heads.
Now, as far as valvetrain goes, two rules to remember: light as possible over the valve side of the rocker, and stout as possible on the lifter side of the rocker.
What I mean is, you would best be served by the lightest valves you can find, the lightest valve springs that will work, the lightest and strongest rocker, and the stoutest pushrods, and best lifters possible. Since you aren't replacing the heads, the lifters and valves will be stock LS1. I'd go with custom 11/32" pushrods from Manton or Trend, stock rockers with the trunion upgrade, and either beehive springs or really lightweight dual valvesprings with Titanium retainers. And don't go with as much spring as possible. That creates wear issues and beats up stuff too. Go with as much spring as you need. Nothing more. The PAC 1904 or BTR Platinum are good duals in this regard as their open and closed spring pressures work well with stock rockers and most street-friendly cam lobes.
The cam should have a fairly mild lobe on it. Valvetrain stability is the key to both power and reliability. The Tick cam mentioned above comes available on milder lobes. I'd buy it with those. You aren't giving up much if any power due to the better valvetrain harmonics. Let the heads and the intake/exhaust do the work of making the motor an efficient airpump. Don't overcam or put the nastiest lobes in there. You won't see a faster car, but you'll see one with more issues and drivability problems.
First, the T-Rex cannot be purchased new. Thunder Racing went under some time ago. You can still order it from Comp or EPS, but that cam is over 10+ years old. It uses the XE-R lobes from Comp (an aggressive lobe, but one that makes power).
The MS4 is old as well and uses LSK lobes. Those lobes make more power than XE-R or anything else, but beat up a valvetrain. I would not recommend them for anything close to a daily driver. If it were a weekend strip car, you could do it. But you have to realize the valvetrain has to be setup to work with those lobes. I'll get to that in a moment.
As far as cams go, Tick has the SNS2 227/234 110 camshaft that will make great power under the curve with stock heads, sound good, drive well with a good tune, and generally make the car faster than the bigger cams without the supporting modifications (see aftermarket heads with smaller combustion chambers for a lot more compression).
I'd also recommend you upgrade to a FAST90/92. Buy one used to save some coin. Over an LS1 intake, they are good for 20-25HP. Budget heads are good for 35-40. So this would be a cheaper way to increase power without having to get into the expense or hassle of changing the heads.
Now, as far as valvetrain goes, two rules to remember: light as possible over the valve side of the rocker, and stout as possible on the lifter side of the rocker.
What I mean is, you would best be served by the lightest valves you can find, the lightest valve springs that will work, the lightest and strongest rocker, and the stoutest pushrods, and best lifters possible. Since you aren't replacing the heads, the lifters and valves will be stock LS1. I'd go with custom 11/32" pushrods from Manton or Trend, stock rockers with the trunion upgrade, and either beehive springs or really lightweight dual valvesprings with Titanium retainers. And don't go with as much spring as possible. That creates wear issues and beats up stuff too. Go with as much spring as you need. Nothing more. The PAC 1904 or BTR Platinum are good duals in this regard as their open and closed spring pressures work well with stock rockers and most street-friendly cam lobes.
The cam should have a fairly mild lobe on it. Valvetrain stability is the key to both power and reliability. The Tick cam mentioned above comes available on milder lobes. I'd buy it with those. You aren't giving up much if any power due to the better valvetrain harmonics. Let the heads and the intake/exhaust do the work of making the motor an efficient airpump. Don't overcam or put the nastiest lobes in there. You won't see a faster car, but you'll see one with more issues and drivability problems.
01-01-2014, 07:25 PM
#15
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Your research is flawed and based on very old threads it seems.
First, the T-Rex cannot be purchased new. Thunder Racing went under some time ago. You can still order it from Comp or EPS, but that cam is over 10+ years old. It uses the XE-R lobes from Comp (an aggressive lobe, but one that makes power).
The MS4 is old as well and uses LSK lobes. Those lobes make more power than XE-R or anything else, but beat up a valvetrain. I would not recommend them for anything close to a daily driver. If it were a weekend strip car, you could do it. But you have to realize the valvetrain has to be setup to work with those lobes. I'll get to that in a moment.
As far as cams go, Tick has the SNS2 227/234 110 camshaft that will make great power under the curve with stock heads, sound good, drive well with a good tune, and generally make the car faster than the bigger cams without the supporting modifications (see aftermarket heads with smaller combustion chambers for a lot more compression).
I'd also recommend you upgrade to a FAST90/92. Buy one used to save some coin. Over an LS1 intake, they are good for 20-25HP. Budget heads are good for 35-40. So this would be a cheaper way to increase power without having to get into the expense or hassle of changing the heads.
Now, as far as valvetrain goes, two rules to remember: light as possible over the valve side of the rocker, and stout as possible on the lifter side of the rocker.
What I mean is, you would best be served by the lightest valves you can find, the lightest valve springs that will work, the lightest and strongest rocker, and the stoutest pushrods, and best lifters possible. Since you aren't replacing the heads, the lifters and valves will be stock LS1. I'd go with custom 11/32" pushrods from Manton or Trend, stock rockers with the trunion upgrade, and either beehive springs or really lightweight dual valvesprings with Titanium retainers. And don't go with as much spring as possible. That creates wear issues and beats up stuff too. Go with as much spring as you need. Nothing more. The PAC 1904 or BTR Platinum are good duals in this regard as their open and closed spring pressures work well with stock rockers and most street-friendly cam lobes.
The cam should have a fairly mild lobe on it. Valvetrain stability is the key to both power and reliability. The Tick cam mentioned above comes available on milder lobes. I'd buy it with those. You aren't giving up much if any power due to the better valvetrain harmonics. Let the heads and the intake/exhaust do the work of making the motor an efficient airpump. Don't overcam or put the nastiest lobes in there. You won't see a faster car, but you'll see one with more issues and drivability problems.
First, the T-Rex cannot be purchased new. Thunder Racing went under some time ago. You can still order it from Comp or EPS, but that cam is over 10+ years old. It uses the XE-R lobes from Comp (an aggressive lobe, but one that makes power).
The MS4 is old as well and uses LSK lobes. Those lobes make more power than XE-R or anything else, but beat up a valvetrain. I would not recommend them for anything close to a daily driver. If it were a weekend strip car, you could do it. But you have to realize the valvetrain has to be setup to work with those lobes. I'll get to that in a moment.
As far as cams go, Tick has the SNS2 227/234 110 camshaft that will make great power under the curve with stock heads, sound good, drive well with a good tune, and generally make the car faster than the bigger cams without the supporting modifications (see aftermarket heads with smaller combustion chambers for a lot more compression).
I'd also recommend you upgrade to a FAST90/92. Buy one used to save some coin. Over an LS1 intake, they are good for 20-25HP. Budget heads are good for 35-40. So this would be a cheaper way to increase power without having to get into the expense or hassle of changing the heads.
Now, as far as valvetrain goes, two rules to remember: light as possible over the valve side of the rocker, and stout as possible on the lifter side of the rocker.
What I mean is, you would best be served by the lightest valves you can find, the lightest valve springs that will work, the lightest and strongest rocker, and the stoutest pushrods, and best lifters possible. Since you aren't replacing the heads, the lifters and valves will be stock LS1. I'd go with custom 11/32" pushrods from Manton or Trend, stock rockers with the trunion upgrade, and either beehive springs or really lightweight dual valvesprings with Titanium retainers. And don't go with as much spring as possible. That creates wear issues and beats up stuff too. Go with as much spring as you need. Nothing more. The PAC 1904 or BTR Platinum are good duals in this regard as their open and closed spring pressures work well with stock rockers and most street-friendly cam lobes.
The cam should have a fairly mild lobe on it. Valvetrain stability is the key to both power and reliability. The Tick cam mentioned above comes available on milder lobes. I'd buy it with those. You aren't giving up much if any power due to the better valvetrain harmonics. Let the heads and the intake/exhaust do the work of making the motor an efficient airpump. Don't overcam or put the nastiest lobes in there. You won't see a faster car, but you'll see one with more issues and drivability problems.
01-02-2014, 09:00 AM
#16
Something along the lines of the popular EPS sizes: 230/234, 230/236, 230/238 would get you everything you want and the softer lobes will help your valvetrain last as a daily driver.
It's big enough you won't feel like you went too small, make great power from surprisingly low in the power all the way to redline, easy to tune, etc.
I would speak to Geoff and tell him what you're after. I run the 230/238 113+2 and it is perfect as far as a daily drivable cam IMO.
It's big enough you won't feel like you went too small, make great power from surprisingly low in the power all the way to redline, easy to tune, etc.
I would speak to Geoff and tell him what you're after. I run the 230/238 113+2 and it is perfect as far as a daily drivable cam IMO.
01-02-2014, 10:15 AM
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Something along the lines of the popular EPS sizes: 230/234, 230/236, 230/238 would get you everything you want and the softer lobes will help your valvetrain last as a daily driver.
It's big enough you won't feel like you went too small, make great power from surprisingly low in the power all the way to redline, easy to tune, etc.
I would speak to Geoff and tell him what you're after. I run the 230/238 113+2 and it is perfect as far as a daily drivable cam IMO.
It's big enough you won't feel like you went too small, make great power from surprisingly low in the power all the way to redline, easy to tune, etc.
I would speak to Geoff and tell him what you're after. I run the 230/238 113+2 and it is perfect as far as a daily drivable cam IMO.
01-02-2014, 10:23 AM
#18
I am a stalled auto.
My roommate has a trans am with the same cam that I also tuned. His car had some mystery cam in it that was sold to him as a stock 98 cam. The 230/238 does everything better all the way from idle to redline. He ran it with stock 3.42 gears and it only got better with 4.10s. It could use some injectors as the stock ones are maxed out but otherwise it drives as close to stock as a car with a Monster stage 3 clutch can.
My roommate has a trans am with the same cam that I also tuned. His car had some mystery cam in it that was sold to him as a stock 98 cam. The 230/238 does everything better all the way from idle to redline. He ran it with stock 3.42 gears and it only got better with 4.10s. It could use some injectors as the stock ones are maxed out but otherwise it drives as close to stock as a car with a Monster stage 3 clutch can.
