snapdude

I know i have another thread going on for the rest of the car rebuild, but i wanted to focus on the engine build and get some input and feedback from the community.
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UPDATE 12-27-14: New twist in the plot of this story... may have the opportunity to get a complete forged bottom end LS7 short block with 1700 miles for $4000

description: "I have a new forged ls7 shortblock (block itself has 1700 miles) new Manley light weight rotating assembly, lpe cam, ported ls3 oil pump, kateck timing chain,.
it is set up for standard LS1 style oiling system (wet sump.) and a 24x reluctor . this means it a direct bolt in for ls1 fbody, c5&c6 vettes, gto,g8, full size trucks, etc pretty much anything that came with a gm ls/lq style engine except c6z or c6 grandsport.
it has not been run since built. it does not include heads, covers, or electronics. I was built with the intension of going into my c5z but I sold the car and have no use for it anymore.
$4000"

Is this worth my time and money for the budget if i stretch it out over some time?
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Original post:
Current car condition:
1999 Formula Firebird w/complete trans am body and interior conversion
116xxx miles
Stock LS1
T56
10-Bolt rebuilt with 3.55 gears and true trac, already grenaded the original 3.42

The goal:
approximately 450-475 rwhp (stretch goal 500rwhp) N/A on (mostly) stock bottom end LS1 that is daily driveable, hopefully able to run mid-low 11s and if it can break into 10s even better.

Budget:
Approximately $10000-$12000 for everything (suspension work, rear end, transmission rebuild, motor work, tune) can go a little over this if the build stretches long period of time.

Current mod list:
-SLP flow pac (lid, scoop, smooth bellow)
-K&N filter
-SLP loud mouth 1 catback system
-Monster stage 1 clutch kit (non-lightweight flywheel)
-1st through 6th gear and reverse bronze fork pads in T56
-B&M short throw
-MSD wires
-145 amp GM alternator
-Ported OEM waterpump (questionable information from previous owner)
-Aftermarket radiator
-SLP Eibach springs/Bilstein shocks performance package
-Brand new drilled/slotted rotors and new (not re-manufactured) calipers
-Hawk brake pads
-Prothane motor/trans mounts

Tentative engine build plans:
-MSD airforce 103mm intake manifold that will be available on the market in january: $950
-FAST fuel rails: $250
-36lb or 42lb injectors (not really sure on this aspect): $???
-Throttle body to match intake manifold (still researching): $???
-MAF to match TB/intake: $???
-Custom fabricated 1 7/8 headers from local fabrication shop
-Custom merge collector or Y/X pipe from local fabrication shop
-AFR LSX mongoose 215 heads or TEA Trickflow 215 heads or set of ported 243 heads (any input here appreciated) with valves/springs/retainers: $2000-$2500
-Possible piston change? (unsure if needed): $400
-Mill work/gaskets to raise compression (11:1-11.5 range): $???
- .610 lift range cam with decent idle lope (custom to match application): $300-$400
-Pushrods: $150
-Timing chain upgrade: $200
-Oil pump upgrade: $200
-Fuel system upgrade (unsure on this aspect): $???
-Complete ls1 refresh as needed (gaskets, bearings, anything else that is whooped on current motor): $???
-tune: $400

The transmission will be getting a rebuild and i will be ordering a new rear end as well, set on S60 w/3.90 gear ratio for now but any suggestions for a rear setup welcome too!

So with this list can you offer any suggestions, anything at all, if im going totally in the wrong direction anywhere please say so. Anything else i need to add or anything i shouldn't mess with? Any money that can be moved around and spent elsewhere? Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

svede1212

iTrader: (3)

475-500 RWHP will require max-effort on a 347. I'm probably in that range with a 383 stroker and everything you have listed plus some.

snapdude

Even if I can get to ~450rwhp that would be fine, any changes to my current build list or suggestions on the areas I have listed as unsure are welcome! If anyone can point me in the direction of specific brand name parts as well that would help greatly.

Ls-x

iTrader: (3)

Good luck with your campaign and welcom to ls world.

You are at the right track with your paln and you will reach to your goal easly if you just choose carefully .

I used to have and I think still at least in my little country for the stock bottom ls1 it hit 476 rwhp (std) its equivalent to 460+ (sae)

My setup was hooker 134 + y pipe + 3" cutout mezire electric water pump 25% under drive pulley prc 2.5 ls6 ms4 92mm fast ptm 92mm 60# injectors the compression were arond 11 with valve relief to the pistons with stock rearend and 4 10 ratio centerforce clutch.

You have to be careful with choosing the rerend because the drive train lost will vary and the oem diff will win over all the aftermarket rears but it will not live as much as the after market ones.

newchevyman

iTrader: (15)

I would wait on buying the MSD intake until we see some tests of it versus FAST's new removable intake runners unless you want to do us all a favor and be the one tests it?! haha. Both should be out before summertime next year if I'm not mistaken.

The throttle body you're going to want is a NW 102. It will work with a FAST 102 and presumably the MSD.

If you want the MAF to match the rest of your intake tract you'll need either a TSP or Lingenfelter 100 mm MAF. I've recently learned you can make an LS7 MAF work but uncertain on the details. Then the lid would be an FTP 98 or 104 if you're looking to keep the entire intake tract the same size.

Curious as to why you're having a shop fab your headers? I would go with ARH or Kooks 1 & 7/8" and an ORX. Can't go wrong with either. I would have gone ARH if they offered an over the axle true dual system out of the box like Kooks does.

Replace your stage 1 with a stage 2 or 3 or if you can afford it go to a twin disk with a lighter flywheel. I'll let others chime in on what heads/cam would help you achieve your power goal. It looks like you're on the right track to build a proper N/A 346 though.

snapdude

Im wanting to go with new rear becuase I already rebuilt the stock 10 bolt with the slight mods it already has, I don't want to grenade another, the s60 is great for the price, should I go 9inch or 12 bolt instead? The custom fab headers are free from the local shop, I advertise and they are free, this frees up money for other things. I will be more than willing to test the new MSD intake for the community, from what I read around the web its on par if not better than the fast in bolt on applications. I was already planning on a new clutch setup once the t56 goes it for rebuild, not sure if I want twin disc setup for daily driving though.

snapdude

link to parent thread stating the entire rebuild project- https://ls1tech.com/forums/pontiac-f...l#post18588859

A.R. Shale Targa

iTrader: (2)

plenty of nice heads to choose from these days
Brian Tooley modded Trick Flow 220s
PRC as cast 220s or CNC 215s
AFR heads 210 V2 or cnc 215s
Tony Mamo has some new 220s coming out soon...supposedly cast by AFR and then hand blended by him...perhaps you could be the first to try those out for the LS1 TECH community

snapdude

Well, the build is happening in January, and my budget for heads alone is approx $2500 max. So I have to make a decision by the first week of January. So depending on whats available then i will make a choice. The TEA stage 2 243's put up solid low/mid lift flow numbers and are within 2-3 cfm of more expensive trickflows or afrs at 40% less cost. Is a super top of the line set of heads worth it for $1000 more on a stock bottom end N/A LS1?

A.R. Shale Targa

iTrader: (2)

The Trick Flow 13.5 degree or the Mast Black Label 11 degree 215s will allow a bit more intake lobe without needing to flycut. So you get a much more sturdy deck surface in case you ever go forced induction, more mid lift flow numbers through a 10cc smaller runner (elevated port speed) and better piston to valve clearance. Obviously anyone with a heartbeat knows the TEA stuff is quite nice, however few if any have a budget like yours so why not put the cherry and the whipped cream on that sundae.
Hit Tony with a PM as he's said his new stuff is due out early next year.
You can also check out his 490 RWHP/346 thread on page two or three of this gen III internal

Orange Juice

iTrader: (3)

I would go more cubes then worry about a number, to get to a max effort 347 you are going to sacrifice drivability as well are requiring very pricy bits to get you there. You are going to burn threw that $10000 very quickly once you look at intake, fuelling and rear end. Not to mention the upgrades to your transmission.

sbf

tfs 215 vrx4 cam or ssht cam fast 102.this combo makes that power easily thru a auto trans with nice drivability so the a manual it would probably make more.check out rpm from n.c. he has tuned plenty of vehicle with that set up and has no issues.i have also seen same results with tfs as cast 220 and tea 243 heads.also tick 227/235 cam eps 226/234 all gonna be around the same power.

Fry_

For the clutch I'd go with a Monster LT1-S it will hold 700hp and have driveability and longjevity of a GM OE clutch because other than the flywheel thats what it is. You may also want to look at a MidWest Chassis 9", it looks expensive at first but when you add up the cost of adding it's standard features to a S60, and the fact that its a lot lighter the price doesn't seem as high.

For heads buy the best you can afford, but I'd buy either PCR 225 as cast or TrickFlow 220 as cast from BTR before ever considering ported 243's. The cost of buying the castings, them having them worked on just doesn't seem worth it when there are good budget aftermarket castings available for only a little more money. But if you have the cash I'd hold off till MMS 220's are available they look like they will be some of the best max effort 346 heads available.

snapdude

Well, I already have $3000 budgeted aside for the rear setup, $1700 budgeted aside for the tick level 2 t56 rebuild... So that leaves me with approximately $6000 give or take $1000 for the motor work. Heads is obviously a big chunk of that, I can't stress enough that this will be a daily driver, so the top of the top heads may be worth every penny but is the extra $$$ they cost worth the relatively small increase in HP they provide over more traditional higher end heads like I have listed and the cam setup needed for them to be most effective may not be the most streetable... Most of my research puts more emphasis on low/mid lift flow numbers for high hp good mannered street cars, not looking to turn 7k rpm every day. For the rear, the s60 seems to have the least amount of power train loss even though it is the heaviest, and actually is the cheapest option, even with driveshaft included, is this true? 475rwhp doesn't need bulletproof, only reliability. I really appreciate everyone's suggestions, I have some more research to do! Any more thoughts please feel free to post them!

svede1212

iTrader: (3)

I can tell you stroking it will make a DD pretty easy as you get the biggest bump in low end torque where to use it more so than a peak RWHP where you don't. I had an issue with a McLeod RST clutch but once they took care of it (no charge) the street manners are awesome, it will hold 700 RWHP and it's $400 cheaper than the Monster.

snapdude

To be completely honest I have no idea what would be involved with stroking my motor. Is it even possible on $5-6000 motor build budget and still atain ~450rwhp?

Fry_

I just can't see adding 70-80 lbs of unsprung weight to my car to save $4-500. I know thats a lot of money but when you're already spending that much money on a car I'd rather spend more for better parts. Also to make up for 70-80 lbs you're going to have to add almost 10 hp, on a H/C/I car adding 10 hp can be pretty damn expensive, and it only makes up for the loss in acceleration you can't make up the losses in turning and braking performance.

Fry_

Looks more like a $250 price difference and it doesn't come with a flywheel which if bought new is $250-400. Either way they both use a stock GM pressure plate McLeod uses a 2010+ V6 Camaro PP and Monster uses a C7 Corvette PP and comes with a billet steel flywheel.

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

Just to better clarify, the new 220's I have coming out are actually an AFR casting with my proprietary port design CNC'ed at AFR's facility.

Basically Im paying them for the reproduction of my new port design and paying then to also handle the CNC porting of that design as well.

I will sell these heads out of the box and they will run very well....if you want even more you can opt for them in a "Mamofied" configuration where there is alot of hand blending to perfect all the small details, slight changes to the valvejob profiles....basically a really efficient optimized set of heads (see my website for pics of the hand-finished LS heads.....lots of good pics to get a better idea of what I'm discussing). Its for the guys looking for all the airflow they can get and are willing to pay more for that extra flow and horsepower.

Should have pricing and flow numbers the middle of January but figure a couple of hundred or so more than an AFR.

I am designing this particular head to work really well in a 3.900 bore configuration (your typical 346/383 combinations). I'm really expecting great things and will be putting all my tricks and best efforts into these new Mamo Motorsport line of LS heads.....keep in mind guys I designed the original AFR cathedrals in 2004 and the V2 update in 2010 or so. These new heads will set the bar even higher

Cheers,
Tony

snapdude

Depending on the time of availability and pricing of the mamo LS heads these may be an option for me, will there be a pre-assembled version or just bare castings? Id be more than willing to be a guinea pig and test these out!