Mamo Motorsports MMS220 Build Thread
10-06-2015, 02:25 PM
#21
I recall reading a thread here where the OP was crying about lost power while using a Mamo head & he posted before contacting Tony about the perceived head problem (can't remember if it was an AFR or a Mamo head). Regardless, it turns out the OP had a$$umed installing 1 7/8 headers would add HP/TQ. His dyno sheet showed a loss in HP/TQ. Tony stated in the thread that he would not have suggested 1 7/8 primaries & that the related loss in velocity due to primary size was what had actually caused the loss in HP TQ, not the heads.
Remembering the thread is what led me to suggest to the OP, in this build thread, that consulting w/ Tony before making any header changes is a good idea.
10-06-2015, 02:46 PM
#22
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To be honest, I would go SD with a custom operating system. I'm doing this on my truck, and the HP Tuners custom OS adds a multiplier table to the VE table that allows for some good fine-tuning of the AFR under a wide range of conditions. I don't want to blow my car's engine screwing with it to learn, but on the truck it's done quite well.
If you go MAF, go 100mm like the TSP or lingenfelter. Make sure you put the screen in. F body intakes don't get good laminar flow, so partial throttle will be tough to tune otherwise.
If you go MAF, go 100mm like the TSP or lingenfelter. Make sure you put the screen in. F body intakes don't get good laminar flow, so partial throttle will be tough to tune otherwise.
Crappy thing is I just bought an SLP lid a few months ago, and I don't really feel like buying the larger FTP lid...
10-06-2015, 03:27 PM
#23
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I'm sure they're both equally easy to tune. Just make sure you buy a screen. The lingenfelter for sure comes without - which is fine on a vette intake, but not F body.
My tuner preferred the lingenfelter, but that could be familiarity as much as anything.
My tuner preferred the lingenfelter, but that could be familiarity as much as anything.
10-06-2015, 06:47 PM
#24
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While I wait for the heads and intake to show up, I'm going to focus on tear down and cleaning. Im also planning on painting my valve covers, water pump, and timing cover black for the hell of it.
10-06-2015, 06:57 PM
#25
Sounds good. I was also looking at the spectre/ls7 cheapo setup people are running now. I have a solid month before I need to worry about MAF choice though, so I have some time to decide.
While I wait for the heads and intake to show up, I'm going to focus on tear down and cleaning. Im also planning on painting my valve covers, water pump, and timing cover black for the hell of it.
While I wait for the heads and intake to show up, I'm going to focus on tear down and cleaning. Im also planning on painting my valve covers, water pump, and timing cover black for the hell of it.
Tell me more. I'm in the same boat as you- getting MMS 220s from Tony and am hunting a cheap Fast 102 setup. Hopefully I can go with the most economical option for a MAF.
10-06-2015, 07:22 PM
#26
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10-06-2015, 08:36 PM
#27
Guys,
To set the record straight.....on a max effort 346 looking to punch the most HP and TQ, I would opt for a Kooks or an ARH 1.875 system without question (In an FBody the Kook's true duals are the ultimate set-up but cost an arm and a leg.....Y-Body you could go either vendor...similar pricing and both excellent quality).
That being said know that the 1.875 will give up 15-20 ft/lbs of torque to the smaller 1.75 system in the 3700-4K range. You will gain 6-8 RWHP up top and carry a little better (flatter past peak) with the larger primary but its not a free lunch due to the TQ loss in the 4K range.
Personally....with my driving style Im either cruising around town under 3K or I drop the hammer and grab a gear I see 5K or more (in a 346 build at least) so the choice for the way I drive makes the larger tube a no brainer. If I road raced the car however, especially on tighter courses, the smaller primary would work better in that application. If your the type of guy that drives it alot more than races it....and secretly know your not that aggressive in driving style (you wouldn't share that with your buddies on Tech!
), the smaller header makes more sense. (And if you already own 1.75 headers and don't want to spend money on 1.875.....the smaller headers make sense once again.....LOL) BUT keep in mind you could sell your 1.75 to offset the cost of the larger 1.875 some! 
Its really a driving style and application kind of thing.....but if your swinging for the fences with an optimized build and a really killer set of heads with a properly ported induction etc, the 1.875 is going to keep up with the airflow that engine is capable of moving a little more than the smaller primary....and that's exactly why you will see it carry better and make more peak upstairs.....the engine is still effectively evacuating the cylinders when it has so little time to do so (tiny fractions of a second at high RPM)....Hell even 6500 has the crankshaft spinning 108 times per second. Next time you have one in your hand think about that for a minute......LOL
=)
Excited about the OP's build....looking forward to the results!
-Tony
To set the record straight.....on a max effort 346 looking to punch the most HP and TQ, I would opt for a Kooks or an ARH 1.875 system without question (In an FBody the Kook's true duals are the ultimate set-up but cost an arm and a leg.....Y-Body you could go either vendor...similar pricing and both excellent quality).
That being said know that the 1.875 will give up 15-20 ft/lbs of torque to the smaller 1.75 system in the 3700-4K range. You will gain 6-8 RWHP up top and carry a little better (flatter past peak) with the larger primary but its not a free lunch due to the TQ loss in the 4K range.
Personally....with my driving style Im either cruising around town under 3K or I drop the hammer and grab a gear I see 5K or more (in a 346 build at least) so the choice for the way I drive makes the larger tube a no brainer. If I road raced the car however, especially on tighter courses, the smaller primary would work better in that application. If your the type of guy that drives it alot more than races it....and secretly know your not that aggressive in driving style (you wouldn't share that with your buddies on Tech!
), the smaller header makes more sense. (And if you already own 1.75 headers and don't want to spend money on 1.875.....the smaller headers make sense once again.....LOL) BUT keep in mind you could sell your 1.75 to offset the cost of the larger 1.875 some! Its really a driving style and application kind of thing.....but if your swinging for the fences with an optimized build and a really killer set of heads with a properly ported induction etc, the 1.875 is going to keep up with the airflow that engine is capable of moving a little more than the smaller primary....and that's exactly why you will see it carry better and make more peak upstairs.....the engine is still effectively evacuating the cylinders when it has so little time to do so (tiny fractions of a second at high RPM)....Hell even 6500 has the crankshaft spinning 108 times per second. Next time you have one in your hand think about that for a minute......LOL
=)
Excited about the OP's build....looking forward to the results!
-Tony
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Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 10-06-2015 at 08:44 PM.
10-06-2015, 09:33 PM
#28
Not to derail the OP's thread too far but on the primary tube topic; Do the 6.0 or 6.2 engines also lose torque in that 3-4 thousand range to the smaller 1.75" but just not as much dip as the 5.7 ? Factoring in the additional 2.25 or 3.75 cubic inches more per cylinder and assuming all other variables fixed.
10-06-2015, 09:37 PM
#29
That being said know that the 1.875 will give up 15-20 ft/lbs of torque to the smaller 1.75 system in the 3700-4K range. You will gain 6-8 RWHP up top and carry a little better (flatter past peak) with the larger primary but its not a free lunch due to the TQ loss in the 4K range.
I'd be willing to bet that most if they're honest will feel 15-20ft/lbs through the middle a whole lot more than 6-8hp in the top end of the rev range through their butt dyno.
Jason
Last edited by Jase01; 10-06-2015 at 11:35 PM.
10-06-2015, 11:54 PM
#31
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What exhaust system is you going with ?
I'm running the kooks true dual system myself. It sounds awesome and can be had for 1200 bucks shipped. Call the right place at the right time to get a deal!!
I'm running the kooks true dual system myself. It sounds awesome and can be had for 1200 bucks shipped. Call the right place at the right time to get a deal!!
10-07-2015, 08:05 AM
#34
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I thought the Bosch/Fast 36lb injectors had TONS of data on them? From the research I've done, they are one of the most recommended injectors there is?
10-07-2015, 09:43 AM
#37
Guys,
To set the record straight.....on a max effort 346 looking to punch the most HP and TQ, I would opt for a Kooks or an ARH 1.875 system without question (In an FBody the Kook's true duals are the ultimate set-up but cost an arm and a leg.....Y-Body you could go either vendor...similar pricing and both excellent quality).
That being said know that the 1.875 will give up 15-20 ft/lbs of torque to the smaller 1.75 system in the 3700-4K range. You will gain 6-8 RWHP up top and carry a little better (flatter past peak) with the larger primary but its not a free lunch due to the TQ loss in the 4K range.
-Tony
To set the record straight.....on a max effort 346 looking to punch the most HP and TQ, I would opt for a Kooks or an ARH 1.875 system without question (In an FBody the Kook's true duals are the ultimate set-up but cost an arm and a leg.....Y-Body you could go either vendor...similar pricing and both excellent quality).
That being said know that the 1.875 will give up 15-20 ft/lbs of torque to the smaller 1.75 system in the 3700-4K range. You will gain 6-8 RWHP up top and carry a little better (flatter past peak) with the larger primary but its not a free lunch due to the TQ loss in the 4K range.
-Tony
Am a bit confused. IDK, if the guy deleted his first post in the thread (of which delete's the whole thread & is something that should be addressed by the moderators so that it does not delete the OP whole thread), but, I can't find the thread where you talk about how the exhaust port velocity seen in AFR XXX heads is greater than in 243's (& I have a$$umed a few others) & connecting them to 1 7/8" primaries reduces exhaust scavenging & effects under the curve HP/TQ. Did you mean across the board under the curve or 3700-4K in that AFR XXX thread?
Kinda on topic considering that it is a build thread.
10-07-2015, 11:04 AM
#38
^^^ Which guy are you referring to? You talking about this thread or another thread? I'm not saying you aren't somewhat right in your previous post about 1 3/4" headers vrs. 1 7/8" headers, but in every single dyno graph I've ever seen, even on simple bolt on setups, the 1 7/8" headers picked up pretty much throughout the entire graph. It would yield even better results with great flowing heads and a cam with a decent amount of overlap. The more air the engine is taking in, the quicker it's got to exhale it, and the bigger primaries facilitate that process more efficiently. That's indicative of the companies out there that produce 2" primary headers, and the call of the masses for other companies to do the same, hence Texas Speed's new 2" F-Body headers.
10-07-2015, 01:28 PM
#40
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I'm going to start painting some things this weekend, mostly valve covers, timing cover, valley pan, and water pump. I plan on using VHT Black Wrinkle paint w/ their engine enamel primer. Will this hold up pretty well? I've seen mixed reviews on about every kind of paint...