Question about LLSR on the street
06-28-2016, 06:17 PM
#1
Question about LLSR on the street My 2000 Z28 only sees 1500 miles a year on the street, maybe 2000. It's got a 4k stall and sees a lot of strip time. I'm close to buying a cam, heads, intake, and want as much power as I can get. I've thought about pulling the engine for forged rods and pistons to handle the rpm.
So my main question for llsr cams is how often are you guys having to adjust valves? Being an f-body, I'm sure it's a little more difficult than my 69 Chevelle.
So my main question for llsr cams is how often are you guys having to adjust valves? Being an f-body, I'm sure it's a little more difficult than my 69 Chevelle.
06-28-2016, 10:20 PM
#2
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Kip @ CAMMOTION has vehicles with over 15K miles with no
Adjustment. I am actually having a LLSR engine being built currently.
I believe the lobe acceleration rates, lift and spring pressure
Would have tHe biggest determinant on longevity along with
RPM.
Adjustment. I am actually having a LLSR engine being built currently.
I believe the lobe acceleration rates, lift and spring pressure
Would have tHe biggest determinant on longevity along with
RPM.
06-28-2016, 11:15 PM
#3
TECH Junkie
How high do you realistically want to spin this thing? LS7 lifters can handle 7000 for sure. Morel hydraulics are in setups spinning over 8k. A modern hydraulic lifter can take some serious abuse and hold up to the test.
A llsr probably won't net you any power, but it will keep the valvetrain more stable at high rpm's, helping to keep the curve from falling off. Most solid lifters net more power (even with the same durations) because they usually run so much more lift. If you're staying with low lift and under 7500 rpm, id say it's probably not worth the hassle imo
A llsr probably won't net you any power, but it will keep the valvetrain more stable at high rpm's, helping to keep the curve from falling off. Most solid lifters net more power (even with the same durations) because they usually run so much more lift. If you're staying with low lift and under 7500 rpm, id say it's probably not worth the hassle imo
06-29-2016, 01:42 AM
#4
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Ok, I actually HAVE LLSR in my car. Here's my experience as compared to Stock lifters and Johnson short travel lifters.
Johnsons rev better than stock. No question. They are very stable and very strong. FWIW the travel on mine was 058. Even so, there is still pump up and bleed down. Delays how the valve acts vs the cam lobe.
Solids rev even more better. I took mine straight to 7300 within an hour of getting the motor running, and I think it could have gone higher, but I still have some things to do. You still need to be meticulous about springs and valve train weight if you want to rev like that. Can't just throw in solid lifters and be done. But no pumping up or down, so the valve follows the cam love within the limits of pushrod deflection. So you also go big on PR OD.
Of the three, the LLSR had resulted in the quietest and most stable valve train. And my LLSR ramp rates are kind of an odd mixture of fast and slow. Lift is 653 with 1.7 rockers. They are moderate off the seat, very rapid to 200, less rapid to 500, very gently over to the other 500, fast to 200, very fast to 050, moderate back to seat.
Now, to answer the question - does LLSR make more power. Undeniably YES. Your damn damn right it does! I can't even begin to describe how much quicker the motor revs, or how hard it pulls. I haven't dyno'd yet with the LLSR and don't need to. It's not "a little faster". I went from being used to my cars power to "holy **** what just happened?"
When I sent the videos to Kip he thought my torque converter was slipping, and I drive a manual with a twin disc clutch. That's how fast and stable this thing revs. In my ghost hawk thread I posted a few vids. One is a first gear pull from 3k to 7k on stock gears with 27.4" tires. I can promise you it wasn't THAT fast on Johnson short travels.
Bottom line, it's easy to have the discussion, but same vehicle, no contest. LLSR FTMFW
Johnsons rev better than stock. No question. They are very stable and very strong. FWIW the travel on mine was 058. Even so, there is still pump up and bleed down. Delays how the valve acts vs the cam lobe.
Solids rev even more better. I took mine straight to 7300 within an hour of getting the motor running, and I think it could have gone higher, but I still have some things to do. You still need to be meticulous about springs and valve train weight if you want to rev like that. Can't just throw in solid lifters and be done. But no pumping up or down, so the valve follows the cam love within the limits of pushrod deflection. So you also go big on PR OD.
Of the three, the LLSR had resulted in the quietest and most stable valve train. And my LLSR ramp rates are kind of an odd mixture of fast and slow. Lift is 653 with 1.7 rockers. They are moderate off the seat, very rapid to 200, less rapid to 500, very gently over to the other 500, fast to 200, very fast to 050, moderate back to seat.
Now, to answer the question - does LLSR make more power. Undeniably YES. Your damn damn right it does! I can't even begin to describe how much quicker the motor revs, or how hard it pulls. I haven't dyno'd yet with the LLSR and don't need to. It's not "a little faster". I went from being used to my cars power to "holy **** what just happened?"
When I sent the videos to Kip he thought my torque converter was slipping, and I drive a manual with a twin disc clutch. That's how fast and stable this thing revs. In my ghost hawk thread I posted a few vids. One is a first gear pull from 3k to 7k on stock gears with 27.4" tires. I can promise you it wasn't THAT fast on Johnson short travels.
Bottom line, it's easy to have the discussion, but same vehicle, no contest. LLSR FTMFW
06-29-2016, 05:51 AM
#5
Kip @ Cam motion sounds like the guy to talk to if you're worried about frequent adjustments. The guys at Cam motion are top notch and I have dealt with them alongside Pat G for my personal cars as well as dozens of my friends cars!
06-29-2016, 07:28 AM
#6
TECH Junkie
Ironically, a buddy has recently sent me this video. Now, before I start, one test is not the end all-be all of solid rollers. But, in an engine making this much power, hp was only increased by 20 horse. the real gain was the stability. Also, the solid roller had significantly more lift over the hyd roller. That much difference in lift, to me, makes the gains sortof a wash.
I will agree they probably do rev alot faster given the changes in parasitic loss from the valvetrain, as well as the ramp rates being more true to the cam rather than "sloppy" with a hyd. roller. Rev faster doesn't always equal more power according to the curve tho.
For me, it wouldn't be worth all of the extra time and effort to only gain a small bit of power relative to the build but then again, I don't plan to spin my stuff that high so not really a matter of concern. For someone that really is going to spin their engine to 7000+ and wants every bit of power they can muster, I don't see any problems with a llsr.
If anyone has dynos of back to back (or even just the same setup) runs where the only change is from hyd. roller to llsr, I'd love to see them and learn from them! You guys might change my mind after-all, who knows.
I will agree they probably do rev alot faster given the changes in parasitic loss from the valvetrain, as well as the ramp rates being more true to the cam rather than "sloppy" with a hyd. roller. Rev faster doesn't always equal more power according to the curve tho.
For me, it wouldn't be worth all of the extra time and effort to only gain a small bit of power relative to the build but then again, I don't plan to spin my stuff that high so not really a matter of concern. For someone that really is going to spin their engine to 7000+ and wants every bit of power they can muster, I don't see any problems with a llsr.
If anyone has dynos of back to back (or even just the same setup) runs where the only change is from hyd. roller to llsr, I'd love to see them and learn from them! You guys might change my mind after-all, who knows.
06-29-2016, 08:34 AM
#7
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Maroon, having read your post I see your point of view is very well thought out and researched. May I offer this for consideration?
One of the flaws in hydraulic valve train is the inherent slop, and variances of preload and travel between cylinders. Several true experts have told me the optimization work on my valve train is worth a good 20-30 HP vs just sticking the rods in. As all eight cylinders approach producing equal power, the engine makes more total power.
So, if you have an engine making a set amount of power and you make one cylinder somehow more powerful than the rest, the engine loses power. Weird but true.
Solids sort of force you to balance the cylinders better because you can't fall back on hydraulic slop to make up the difference, which results in a power increase.
Also, while I have no evidence yet, it feels to me that the peak power RPM has moved higher. Typically, shifting the peak higher results in a higher HP number.
Short version: balance + stability = rpm = hp
I think it will end up even more important at the track. Because the ability to ride the gears longer almost always increases trap speeds
All of the above said, the increased lift does muddy the water a little. I propose the increase is less than you think. You must subtract hot lash times rocker ratio from the calculated lift to get actual lift on a solid lifter. Also, the hydraulic pumping can actually result in higher than calculated lift by raising the pushrod to less preload than when it's sitting still.
Food for thought.
One of the flaws in hydraulic valve train is the inherent slop, and variances of preload and travel between cylinders. Several true experts have told me the optimization work on my valve train is worth a good 20-30 HP vs just sticking the rods in. As all eight cylinders approach producing equal power, the engine makes more total power.
So, if you have an engine making a set amount of power and you make one cylinder somehow more powerful than the rest, the engine loses power. Weird but true.
Solids sort of force you to balance the cylinders better because you can't fall back on hydraulic slop to make up the difference, which results in a power increase.
Also, while I have no evidence yet, it feels to me that the peak power RPM has moved higher. Typically, shifting the peak higher results in a higher HP number.
Short version: balance + stability = rpm = hp
I think it will end up even more important at the track. Because the ability to ride the gears longer almost always increases trap speeds
All of the above said, the increased lift does muddy the water a little. I propose the increase is less than you think. You must subtract hot lash times rocker ratio from the calculated lift to get actual lift on a solid lifter. Also, the hydraulic pumping can actually result in higher than calculated lift by raising the pushrod to less preload than when it's sitting still.
Food for thought.
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06-29-2016, 09:03 AM
#9
I'm running a low lash solid roller in my Chevelle on stock LS rocker arms with trunion upgrades.
You couldn't pay me to go back. Especially not on ls7 lifters. I won't ever put a ls7 lifter in anything again...ran them briefly before the LLSR swap and they were noticeably worse about bleeding off and making noise than the Caddy Racing lifters or the Vortec lifters I ran before.
I'm only planning to turn mine to ~7000rpm. It still made a decent impact over the hydraulic setup.
I have checked my lash 4 times now and it hasn't moved more enough to adjust even on fresh cam, lifters, pushrods, trunions, etc.
The car gained more power than it should have for the cam swap. Effective duration was bumped 4* and lift by around .020". Car gained 20+rwhp and RPMs better:
****Also NOTE: see that shitty curve? It's because I had made a mistake on the tune and the AFRs were dangerous lean...by the time I found the issue with my wideband/tune I was out of dyno time and just decided to finish at the track. The car would have made more power and especially down low where it was even more lean.
These gains were backed up by going faster in WORSE da than before. In the fall I expect to be 3-4 mph over where it was before.
The car is noticeably different with the solid roller. Hard to explain...runs smoother, harder, revs quicker...sounds different. It's hard to explain fully but a friend who is very familiar with my car rode in it and bought a LLSR shortly after to replace his hydraulic because he was impressed with the difference.
My full thread is here:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...cker-arms.html
You couldn't pay me to go back. Especially not on ls7 lifters. I won't ever put a ls7 lifter in anything again...ran them briefly before the LLSR swap and they were noticeably worse about bleeding off and making noise than the Caddy Racing lifters or the Vortec lifters I ran before.
I'm only planning to turn mine to ~7000rpm. It still made a decent impact over the hydraulic setup.
I have checked my lash 4 times now and it hasn't moved more enough to adjust even on fresh cam, lifters, pushrods, trunions, etc.
The car gained more power than it should have for the cam swap. Effective duration was bumped 4* and lift by around .020". Car gained 20+rwhp and RPMs better:
****Also NOTE: see that shitty curve? It's because I had made a mistake on the tune and the AFRs were dangerous lean...by the time I found the issue with my wideband/tune I was out of dyno time and just decided to finish at the track. The car would have made more power and especially down low where it was even more lean.
These gains were backed up by going faster in WORSE da than before. In the fall I expect to be 3-4 mph over where it was before.
The car is noticeably different with the solid roller. Hard to explain...runs smoother, harder, revs quicker...sounds different. It's hard to explain fully but a friend who is very familiar with my car rode in it and bought a LLSR shortly after to replace his hydraulic because he was impressed with the difference.
My full thread is here:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...cker-arms.html
06-29-2016, 09:11 AM
#10
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Maroon, having read your post I see your point of view is very well thought out and researched. May I offer this for consideration?
One of the flaws in hydraulic valve train is the inherent slop, and variances of preload and travel between cylinders. Several true experts have told me the optimization work on my valve train is worth a good 20-30 HP vs just sticking the rods in. As all eight cylinders approach producing equal power, the engine makes more total power. I agree, 20 hp is a very believable number!
So, if you have an engine making a set amount of power and you make one cylinder somehow more powerful than the rest, the engine loses power. Weird but true.
Solids sort of force you to balance the cylinders better because you can't fall back on hydraulic slop to make up the difference, which results in a power increase.
Also, while I have no evidence yet, it feels to me that the peak power RPM has moved higher. Typically, shifting the peak higher results in a higher HP number. I don't know if the peak is changed all that much, but it certainly will carry longer before it falls off. Most hyd. rollers fall off so hard not because the cam couldn't flow enough air, but because the valvetrain gets so unstable that it starts to fight itself.
Short version: balance + stability = rpm = hp
I think it will end up even more important at the track. Because the ability to ride the gears longer almost always increases trap speeds. totally agree!!
All of the above said, the increased lift does muddy the water a little. I propose the increase is less than you think. You must subtract hot lash times rocker ratio from the calculated lift to get actual lift on a solid lifter. Also, the hydraulic pumping can actually result in higher than calculated lift by raising the pushrod to less preload than when it's sitting still.
Food for thought.
One of the flaws in hydraulic valve train is the inherent slop, and variances of preload and travel between cylinders. Several true experts have told me the optimization work on my valve train is worth a good 20-30 HP vs just sticking the rods in. As all eight cylinders approach producing equal power, the engine makes more total power. I agree, 20 hp is a very believable number!
So, if you have an engine making a set amount of power and you make one cylinder somehow more powerful than the rest, the engine loses power. Weird but true.
Solids sort of force you to balance the cylinders better because you can't fall back on hydraulic slop to make up the difference, which results in a power increase.
Also, while I have no evidence yet, it feels to me that the peak power RPM has moved higher. Typically, shifting the peak higher results in a higher HP number. I don't know if the peak is changed all that much, but it certainly will carry longer before it falls off. Most hyd. rollers fall off so hard not because the cam couldn't flow enough air, but because the valvetrain gets so unstable that it starts to fight itself.
Short version: balance + stability = rpm = hp
I think it will end up even more important at the track. Because the ability to ride the gears longer almost always increases trap speeds. totally agree!!
All of the above said, the increased lift does muddy the water a little. I propose the increase is less than you think. You must subtract hot lash times rocker ratio from the calculated lift to get actual lift on a solid lifter. Also, the hydraulic pumping can actually result in higher than calculated lift by raising the pushrod to less preload than when it's sitting still.
Food for thought.
06-29-2016, 09:18 AM
#11
If the OP is only driving 2000 miles per year he won't ever notice a difference in terms of hassle IMO. He would probably be changing valve springs before he would be adjusting lash.
The only other difference is I am more conscious about letting the car warm up to operating temp and beyond before really hammering on it. This is something that should be done regardless but most people are a little lenient with doing so.
The only other difference is I am more conscious about letting the car warm up to operating temp and beyond before really hammering on it. This is something that should be done regardless but most people are a little lenient with doing so.
06-29-2016, 09:27 AM
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All in all, there's no arguing, Solid rollers, all else the same, will make more power, rev faster, and carry the power out longer. My only question is...when is it worth it. Its a matter of streetability which varies so much person to person. To me, probably not worth the hassle. To someone else, they might not ever run a hyd. roller again.
Street ability really goes back to the cam selection.
You are correct that it's up to the owner of its worth it or not. It's less hassle than you might think, but more hassle than hydraulics for sure on the initial install.
I'm with Thunderstruck though. You couldn't pay me to undo the swap.
06-29-2016, 10:16 AM
#15
For me, I think it would be worth it.
As far as do they make more power? I've seen several threads were guys switched to a llsr, and everyone gained considerable power. So that's not even a debate.
With my 4k stall, I would plan to rev 7,000 to 7,500... similar to Darth's setup. Plus I love how quick a llsr revs.
I guess proper selection of cam and valve train will determine if I have to adjust valves. Only driving 2000 miles on the street per year plus many quarter mile runs, I'd be happy if I only had to adjust check them once or twice in that year.
As far as do they make more power? I've seen several threads were guys switched to a llsr, and everyone gained considerable power. So that's not even a debate.
With my 4k stall, I would plan to rev 7,000 to 7,500... similar to Darth's setup. Plus I love how quick a llsr revs.
I guess proper selection of cam and valve train will determine if I have to adjust valves. Only driving 2000 miles on the street per year plus many quarter mile runs, I'd be happy if I only had to adjust check them once or twice in that year.
06-29-2016, 10:38 AM
#17
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Would a set of Yella Terra adjustable rocker arms weigh too much to control? Using these rockers looks like it would take a lot of the work out of setting the valve train up.
06-29-2016, 11:01 AM
#18
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Man I'm glad I stumbled across this thread. Always thought solid rollers were a PITA and for drag cars only. Now reading your guys experiences I think I need one in my life.