MBC Racing

iTrader: (3)

I was running a roat track this past sat and during a long sweeping left hander I must have uncovered the oil pick up and starved the bearings. I felt it go down on power and when I looked at the gages I saw that I was only at 40 psi at 6k rpm. The car was pulling some really good G's on R compound tires and was at 6k+ through a long corner.

Now I need to keep this from happening to my new 383 that is being built. I was considering an Accusump and/or a Canton oil pan. Or, if I can modify a Vette pan to fit, I may do that.

Anybody know of my options???
The Accusump is gona be about $400, but that is cheap to save a motor. I even had and extra 3/4 of a quart of oil in the motor. I have heard that this is a problem for ls1 f-body road racers.....

Any help is appreciated since I will be buying the parts asap.

Thanks
Brad

2001CamaroGuy

iTrader: (6)

I did the Moroso 3quart canister on my car more for the pre-oiling ability than anything (though having the extra oil is nice if I go racing). I already had an oil cooler and remote filters so I just T-ed the return line to the block. As I said, I use it mostly for pre-oiling on startup. I flip the switch just before I crank and let the oil pressure come up (usually about 15psi or so) and when it starts to fall off (by about 10psi) I crank. It fills all my lines and the oil passages in the block so the bearings get oil sooner. Once the engine is running and pressure comes up (there is a pressure sensor in line that triggers at about 35-40psi) the valve will close and allow the canister to fill (when “closed” the valve acts as a check valve….oil can go into the tank but not out). Should oil pressure fall for some reason the electric valve will open and dump the 3 quarts back into the system. Before I shut down, I idle up a few hundred RPM to raise the oil pressure up, flip the switch to “off/closed”, give the canister a few seconds to fill fully (~5 seconds to be sure), let off the gas and shut down. This leaves me with a full 3 quarts at 40-45psi ready for when I crank again.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I feel your pain, brother.

I responded to your e-mail, but it might spark some discussion here as well, so other won't feel this pain ....

What kind of oil pump?
I am using a ported and polished pump from Agostino

I run 7 quarts of oil.
When you say 3/4 extra, does that mean you run 6 1/4 total? or 6 3/4?

Any clue as to how much oil it uses when on track?
Mine will use 1/2 quart after about 30 minutes on track.
Consequently, I have to account for that so that at 29 minutes
I'm not below 6 1/2 qts

An accusump is about the best way to go. But finding a spot for it is an
issue at least for me. I'm not to the point of ripping out the AC and heater. And
there is something about an oil reservoir sitting in the passenger compartment that just doesn't sound right.

I opted not to go with the Canton pan because it requires a remote filter.
Running oil lines around the headers is not an easy thing to do.

Cstraub

iTrader: (1)

Mitch,
7 qts in a stock pan?

Chris

2001CamaroGuy

iTrader: (6)

My oil cooler is mounted to the "back side" of the front frame rail (bumber support I guess you could call it......the big steel cross piece) and I mounted the "accusump" on the front side (in the front bumper). I removed the front bumper and cut the foam out (my entire front "mouth" is actually cut out so my car gets air from the front AND under and ducts to the radiator) so the "accusump" could "hid out" in there. Look into putting there.

I have to say oil lines are a snap if you do them right. I have had them on for going on 3 years now and have never burned/cut a line on the headers (or anything for that matter). If you take a little time you won't have any problems.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Chris, yes 7 in a stock pan.

I friend poured 7 qts of water into a stock pan sitting on the shop floor. The water just made it to the indention cast into the pan to clear 3/4 rod caps and bolts.

That is just below the windage tray. But, take into account the oil in the filter and laying in the motor, the level goes down considerably ... well within the safe zone.

I've been running 7 total for years without an issue.

I too have a cooler, tapped off the ports just above the oil filter. I've run 1/2" lines forward, under the motor mounts and below the alternator, turning and tapping into a large Howe radiator that has an intergrated oil cooler in the side tanks. It was built for LG Motorsports.

I still have all the street stuff on my car ... I guess it's time to either gut and cage it or de-mod it and buy a dedicated race car.

Cstraub

iTrader: (1)

Mitch,
Filling the pan with water and check may give you an idea of where the oil will be at full, but it does not account for the windage that is created in the pan and the area needed to compensate for this. If you haven't had any issues you have been lucky. We are currently in the process of working with GM on the re-design of the oiling system of the LS1/6 engine with the revisions slated for 07.

From our standpoint we would not recommend overfilling the stock pan. It can lead to HP loss and engine damage.

Chris
Stef's Performance

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

As opposed to oil starving and for sure damaging the engine?

I'll continue using 7 quarts like I have for 3 years and 10,000 miles of track time.

But thanks for the warning.

Darkhalf

iTrader: (1)

Its funny this thread is posted, because mine went south over the weekend at a Road Racing event as well. Spun the rod bearings and they are all over the engine. I don't know the extent of the damage, but I'm guessing recleaning of the block is next or upgrade to more of a stronger and durable short block. Assuming my Valves are not bent as well

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

I just bought a 3qt accusump to play with since I plan to spin my engine up to 7400 here and there. I may mount it off the front k-member not sure yet.

Canton makes a 6.5 qt pan now I think but I don't know anyone running one.

sawedoff

iTrader: (3)

http://www.drysump.com/
http://www.aviaid.com/

Call em'. It'll just keep happening again & again & again.

8POTS

I've read good reports about the Canton range of sumps for use on Camero's and Firebirds. You need a decent baffle to keep th oil up to the pickup.

I had a custom baffle fitted to my existing sump pan. Haven't tested it out yet (still sorting other issues) but expect it is up to the task.

Circuit racing's a bitch, ain't it?

cueball

i agree, do not over fill.
the effects from over filling are useuly higher oil temps, and aireation from the rotating ***. hitting the oil.
higher oil temps, lower oil press., and power loss.
get a better oil pan.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Wow ... I really appreciate everyone's concern and input.

But, like I said above ...

I'm not gonna run the Canton pan because it requires remote mounting of the oil filter. Running more 1/2" lines and associated mounting blocks in an already cramped engine bay is just not gonna happen. Not, at least, until I begin gutting and shedding parts making it a track only car.

I would run an Accusump in a heartbeat, but again, cramped quarters.

I fully understand the potential for overfilling an oil pan.

But when weighing potential vs inevitable ... I'll continue using 7 quarts, just like I have been for years without an issue.

It's OK ... I might lose a few ponies and have to change the oil a little more often ... a very small price to pay.

BTW ... my oil temps were 295* measured in the pan. Oil pressure was 45psi at idle with oil temps at that point and 70psi at anything over 2000 rpm. I removed the oil level sensor and plugged the temp sender in it's place.

It's higher than what I would like to see, but the motor is still relatively new.

Till

Dry sump is expensive, but may still be interesting.

This is a system offered by daileyengineering:


The pump is mounted to the pan, and all the lines are internal. You need three external lines: The oil pressure in from the tank, the oil pressure out to the filter and then the motor and the scavenge oil return to the tank.

Till

sawedoff

iTrader: (3)

You guys ought to look at the Armstrong Race Engines stage 1 system it uses the OEM wet sump pump .

http://www.drysump.com/pan1a.htm
http://www.drysump.com/ls1.htm

For the cost of a new a new engine, you could easily get a top notch dry sump. Some of those are even less than that cost wise compared to a new engine. I use a remote filter setup. I had some custom made brackets fabbed up. Location was not a problem. I just followed others advice that had been there and done that, plus what I already knew to be fact from my experience.

These guys make a real good pump, if you decide to go on the high end of a dry sump system.
Razor Performance
http://www.razorperformance.com/pumps.htm

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Still have the AC compressor on the car, which is typically where you get drive for the pump.

The drysump brand is very similar to what Lou is using in his WC Vette.

sawedoff

iTrader: (3)

I would go that route then. You seem to be in good with LG, maybe he could throw some tips your direction. Someone once told me, a good race car is not a good street car, and a fast street car is not a good race car. A genius is one that balances the two.Porsche has been using a dry sump system on their cars for years. If you are needing brackets, I might be able to help you on that. You'll just have to be very technical in your needs.

sawedoff

iTrader: (3)

Those oil pans open up a whole lot of choices. You could then lower the engine in the car even further. You couldn't move it backwards any more, as it's right next to the firewall now. Drive shaft angle would be a real important issue. I could cry at not having IRS for the above reason. GM did their homework in alot of ways, but when you really start getting out there, you can see where they saved money on the market segment that they were selling to.

Chris Paveglio

iTrader: (2)

Werd, I have an Accusump on my WS6, the 3 qt. It's mounted in the front, sort of "under" the fans, in the space between the front of the engine and the radiator. It does NOT sit lower than any of the other parts already on it. When I turn the key on, it puts out 40 psi, then i start it up. The switch stays open as the car is on, so in a turn, if you drop off, the pressure still in the sump will push out the oil. It mounts to the car via a small adapter plate the goes between the oil filter and the filter mount. Check out my website for some detail pix.
http://home.ptd.net/~chrispav then click on the firebird link on left.