Crane Gold Race 1.8 RRs - HELP!
02-24-2006, 05:21 AM
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Crane Gold Race 1.8 RRs - HELP! Just installed a set of Crane's 1.8 RRs (I'm a newbie) and I'm a bit confused about the instructions which state that the adjusting nuts should be turned in 1/4 turn increments for a total of 2 full turns (i.e. 8 times) when adjusting for lifter preload.
My dilemma is that I can't turn the adjusting nuts more than 4 times (i.e. 1 full turn) before the nut sits on the rocker's spindle. And the set screws sit half way above the adjusting nuts so they don't look like they interfere with the stud bolts. I fear I might have done something wrong in the install although I believe I have followed the instructions exactly.
Obviously, I don't want to fire up the engine until I get some advice.
Could anybody please advise me of what I might have done wrong and offer me some suggestions before I start the engine?
My dilemma is that I can't turn the adjusting nuts more than 4 times (i.e. 1 full turn) before the nut sits on the rocker's spindle. And the set screws sit half way above the adjusting nuts so they don't look like they interfere with the stud bolts. I fear I might have done something wrong in the install although I believe I have followed the instructions exactly.
Obviously, I don't want to fire up the engine until I get some advice.Could anybody please advise me of what I might have done wrong and offer me some suggestions before I start the engine?
02-24-2006, 09:08 AM
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This is the 'revised' version... The bit where I'm still confused is in 'Step 2', below. I still only get around 1 full turn (i.e. 4 one-quarter turns) before the adjusting nut hits the rocker spindle... should I back it out a couple of turns and tighten the set screws... and then test by turning the engine over?
Doing the compression test seems to be a little over the top - trying to avoid spending more money? (Please go easy with me, it's the first time I've done any work on the engine.
)
Doing the compression test seems to be a little over the top - trying to avoid spending more money? (Please go easy with me, it's the first time I've done any work on the engine.
)
Proper technique for adjusting VHP / Crane Roller Rocker for the LS1 / LS2 / LS6 engines.
We have had several questions from individuals installing our Crane Gold Race LS1 Rocker Arms about why we wrote the instructions the way we did. Our premise was that most of the time, these rockers would be installed on the engine with the engine in the vehicle. The most important of these considerations is that the stock LS1 valve springs have relatively low seat pressures (70# new and frequently 55-60# after 20-30,000 miles of use). Our instructions call out a procedure of turning the crankshaft one revolution and adjusting any loose rockers to zero lash. Here is where the confusion occurs.
Zero lash should be determined by carefully lifting up on the front of the rocker arm.. at the roller tip and letting the rocker fall against the valve stem. The loose motion, or lash, causes the rocker to click against the valve stem. The adjusting nut should then be adjusted clockwise, by finger, a little at a time, until the click or loose motion is just removed. Do not turn the nut any tighter for this will depress the pushrod into the lifter. When in doubt, back off the nut and repeat the procedure. When all 16 nuts have been zeroed, The engine must be rotated, from the crank pulley bolt, or with a strap wrench. I recommend rotating about 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time. When you check for zero lash again, you will see that some of the rockers are loose because the cam has rotated and those lifters have moved toward the base circle. Simply repeat the rocker arm lash checking and adjusting procedure again. Remember! Only tighten the nuts "by finger" on the obvious loose rockers, and only enough to cause the tip of the rocker to lightly rest on the valve stem. Next rotate the engine another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Check lash and adjust again. Repeat the lash checking and engine rotating until you no longer have any loose "clicking rockers", you are finished with step one. Please note that sometimes the engine must be rotated several times before all the loose rockers are at zero lash. Now, you will not rotate the engine again. Step two requires you to tighten the adjusting nuts on all 16 rockers 1/4 turn. Wait about 10 minutes and repeat. That is, rotate the rocker nuts another 1/4 turn. Wait 10 minutes and rotate the nuts 1/4 turn again. You must rotate the rocker nuts, in this manner a full 1 and 1/2 to 1 and 3/4 turns, so keep an accurate count of the number of times you make 1/4 turn adjustments. You must wait 10 minutes between each 1/4 turn rotation to prevent the depressed valves from contacting the pistons. When you have finished the adjustment procedure, tighten the jamb nuts by holding the adjusting nut with your wrench and tightening the jamb nut with an Allen tool, and then rotating the tools simultaneously clockwise about 1/4 turn to complete the adjusting procedure. At this time it is a good idea to take a compression test to insure that all cylinders have equal pressure. A low compression cylinder probably has a rocker that is too tight. It is real easy, now, to readjust the rocker before installing the valve covers etc. All of this is necessary to allow the “relatively weak” stock valve springs to “bleed down” the hydraulic plunger in the lifter to allow proper lifter preload adjustment. If this procedure is not followed, valves could be “hanging open” when the engine is cranked over. This could result in bent valves. We realize that this procedure seems unnecessary or “overly-complicated” at first glance; but it works and, in the long run, minimizes installation aggravation. The use of higher seat pressure springs can reduce the waiting periods from 10 minutes slightly, during rocker arm installation. If the rockers are being installed as part of a complete rebuild, we recommend adjusting lifter preload to .060 -.100.” Extensive testing has shown this preload to provide the best power and performance, as well as minimizing valve train noise. When the engine is started for the first few times an audible clicking valve train noise may be heard. Run the engine for about fifteen minutes. Vary the rpms up and down during the procedure. After this run in time, the lifters, pushrods, and rockers should fill with oil and the noise will subside. The tech department at VHP will gladly help you through this procedure if issues occur. 407-478-8388
http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...TRUCTIONS.HTML
We have had several questions from individuals installing our Crane Gold Race LS1 Rocker Arms about why we wrote the instructions the way we did. Our premise was that most of the time, these rockers would be installed on the engine with the engine in the vehicle. The most important of these considerations is that the stock LS1 valve springs have relatively low seat pressures (70# new and frequently 55-60# after 20-30,000 miles of use). Our instructions call out a procedure of turning the crankshaft one revolution and adjusting any loose rockers to zero lash. Here is where the confusion occurs.
Zero lash should be determined by carefully lifting up on the front of the rocker arm.. at the roller tip and letting the rocker fall against the valve stem. The loose motion, or lash, causes the rocker to click against the valve stem. The adjusting nut should then be adjusted clockwise, by finger, a little at a time, until the click or loose motion is just removed. Do not turn the nut any tighter for this will depress the pushrod into the lifter. When in doubt, back off the nut and repeat the procedure. When all 16 nuts have been zeroed, The engine must be rotated, from the crank pulley bolt, or with a strap wrench. I recommend rotating about 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time. When you check for zero lash again, you will see that some of the rockers are loose because the cam has rotated and those lifters have moved toward the base circle. Simply repeat the rocker arm lash checking and adjusting procedure again. Remember! Only tighten the nuts "by finger" on the obvious loose rockers, and only enough to cause the tip of the rocker to lightly rest on the valve stem. Next rotate the engine another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Check lash and adjust again. Repeat the lash checking and engine rotating until you no longer have any loose "clicking rockers", you are finished with step one. Please note that sometimes the engine must be rotated several times before all the loose rockers are at zero lash. Now, you will not rotate the engine again. Step two requires you to tighten the adjusting nuts on all 16 rockers 1/4 turn. Wait about 10 minutes and repeat. That is, rotate the rocker nuts another 1/4 turn. Wait 10 minutes and rotate the nuts 1/4 turn again. You must rotate the rocker nuts, in this manner a full 1 and 1/2 to 1 and 3/4 turns, so keep an accurate count of the number of times you make 1/4 turn adjustments. You must wait 10 minutes between each 1/4 turn rotation to prevent the depressed valves from contacting the pistons. When you have finished the adjustment procedure, tighten the jamb nuts by holding the adjusting nut with your wrench and tightening the jamb nut with an Allen tool, and then rotating the tools simultaneously clockwise about 1/4 turn to complete the adjusting procedure. At this time it is a good idea to take a compression test to insure that all cylinders have equal pressure. A low compression cylinder probably has a rocker that is too tight. It is real easy, now, to readjust the rocker before installing the valve covers etc. All of this is necessary to allow the “relatively weak” stock valve springs to “bleed down” the hydraulic plunger in the lifter to allow proper lifter preload adjustment. If this procedure is not followed, valves could be “hanging open” when the engine is cranked over. This could result in bent valves. We realize that this procedure seems unnecessary or “overly-complicated” at first glance; but it works and, in the long run, minimizes installation aggravation. The use of higher seat pressure springs can reduce the waiting periods from 10 minutes slightly, during rocker arm installation. If the rockers are being installed as part of a complete rebuild, we recommend adjusting lifter preload to .060 -.100.” Extensive testing has shown this preload to provide the best power and performance, as well as minimizing valve train noise. When the engine is started for the first few times an audible clicking valve train noise may be heard. Run the engine for about fifteen minutes. Vary the rpms up and down during the procedure. After this run in time, the lifters, pushrods, and rockers should fill with oil and the noise will subside. The tech department at VHP will gladly help you through this procedure if issues occur. 407-478-8388
http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...TRUCTIONS.HTML
02-24-2006, 12:40 PM
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Take the locking set screws back out.Then do exactly as the instructions say.After your done put the set screws back in and lock per the directions.You then shouldnt have any problems.On mine I waited 10 mins before doing the 1/4 turns.
02-24-2006, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by WhiteRhino
Take the locking set screws back out.Then do exactly as the instructions say.After your done put the set screws back in and lock per the directions.You then shouldnt have any problems.On mine I waited 10 mins before doing the 1/4 turns.
Thanks for your help!
02-24-2006, 09:43 PM
#7
looks like you are having the problem i had.... i had it way to TIGHT....
the key is the "finger tight" when you turn the motor over and lift on it.. down lift as in LIFT on the rocker arms.. just gently lift it to listen for the tap. otherwise your just pushing down on the pushrods. if you get what i mean... and then when you tighten dont twist where your squeezing so hard that your fingers hurt. everything your doing is gentle till there is no "tap" then go around and do your 1/4 turns...
the key is the "finger tight" when you turn the motor over and lift on it.. down lift as in LIFT on the rocker arms.. just gently lift it to listen for the tap. otherwise your just pushing down on the pushrods. if you get what i mean... and then when you tighten dont twist where your squeezing so hard that your fingers hurt. everything your doing is gentle till there is no "tap" then go around and do your 1/4 turns...
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02-24-2006, 09:55 PM
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Thanks for your input SVC707. 
I actually did do it finger tight but my fingers are now killing me. On the final leg, I tightened the adjusting nuts using a socket piece. I guess that's a no-no?
A question though... should the set screws be flush with the adjusting nuts?
Should I start over again or back up a few turns on the adjusting nuts?
I hope I haven't done any damage to lifters, etc... I manually turned the engine over before I tried to start her up.
I actually did do it finger tight but my fingers are now killing me. On the final leg, I tightened the adjusting nuts using a socket piece. I guess that's a no-no?
A question though... should the set screws be flush with the adjusting nuts?
Should I start over again or back up a few turns on the adjusting nuts?
I hope I haven't done any damage to lifters, etc... I manually turned the engine over before I tried to start her up.
Last edited by SSbaby; 02-24-2006 at 11:50 PM.
02-25-2006, 12:12 AM
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If you cant turn the engine over they have to be to tight.If the motor actually did spin,you could of bent a valve.Thats why it wouldnt turn over,the valves are too tight and they will hit a piston because the valve is hanging open.
The only thing I can think of is that your not starting from zero lash and your over tightening the rockers.You could even damage a lifter by bottoming it out.You need to actually take the set screws completely out.The set screws being flush has nothing to do with them being right.You could have 1 a few threads higher or lower than the other.Then after all the adjustments you put the set screws in and tighten holding the nut tight with a wrench.
On mine I spun the motor over 3 or 4 times before I made the 1st adjustment making sure that I had zero lash.Make sure your not rocking the rocker left/right when checking lash.It means nothing!You need to lift on the roller/spring end of the rocker till you feel no lift.But do not depress the lifter plunger.You should be able to tell if your depressing the lifter when you pull up on the rocker.If you do its to tight,so loosen it a little till it doesnt depress the lifter plunger.I read you said your fingers were sore from turning the nuts.If thats the case you probably are way past zero.They should be just barely snugged for zero lash.Its always better in my opinion to run the rockers a little loose than to tight.The Vinci how to says 1 1/2 turns,the directions that come with the rockers says 2 turns.I went 2 turns and they came out great.
Anyway hope this helps!
The only thing I can think of is that your not starting from zero lash and your over tightening the rockers.You could even damage a lifter by bottoming it out.You need to actually take the set screws completely out.The set screws being flush has nothing to do with them being right.You could have 1 a few threads higher or lower than the other.Then after all the adjustments you put the set screws in and tighten holding the nut tight with a wrench.
On mine I spun the motor over 3 or 4 times before I made the 1st adjustment making sure that I had zero lash.Make sure your not rocking the rocker left/right when checking lash.It means nothing!You need to lift on the roller/spring end of the rocker till you feel no lift.But do not depress the lifter plunger.You should be able to tell if your depressing the lifter when you pull up on the rocker.If you do its to tight,so loosen it a little till it doesnt depress the lifter plunger.I read you said your fingers were sore from turning the nuts.If thats the case you probably are way past zero.They should be just barely snugged for zero lash.Its always better in my opinion to run the rockers a little loose than to tight.The Vinci how to says 1 1/2 turns,the directions that come with the rockers says 2 turns.I went 2 turns and they came out great.
Anyway hope this helps!
02-25-2006, 01:18 AM
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I actually noticed the bottom of the rockers were scratched as they rubbed up against the guideplates. I did turn the motor over a complete turn before I tried to fire up. Hope the valves didn't bend.
Will start again as I have taken the adjusting screws off... jee, I hope I haven't created a disaster for myself.
Will start again as I have taken the adjusting screws off... jee, I hope I haven't created a disaster for myself.
02-25-2006, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SVC707
looks like you are having the problem i had.... i had it way to TIGHT....
the key is the "finger tight" when you turn the motor over and lift on it.. down lift as in LIFT on the rocker arms.. just gently lift it to listen for the tap. otherwise your just pushing down on the pushrods. if you get what i mean... and then when you tighten dont twist where your squeezing so hard that your fingers hurt. everything your doing is gentle till there is no "tap" then go around and do your 1/4 turns...
the key is the "finger tight" when you turn the motor over and lift on it.. down lift as in LIFT on the rocker arms.. just gently lift it to listen for the tap. otherwise your just pushing down on the pushrods. if you get what i mean... and then when you tighten dont twist where your squeezing so hard that your fingers hurt. everything your doing is gentle till there is no "tap" then go around and do your 1/4 turns...
Hey SVC707
When you had your rockers too tight, did you do any damage to other parts of your engine or was everything in order after you tried again?
Cheers
02-25-2006, 03:34 AM
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i agree with white, sore fingers=too tight. the goal is to have '0' lash, that means no lifter preload, before starting the adjustment procedures. if you are only getting 1 full turn of the adjusting nut after setting the rockers to '0' lash, you either have too much initial pre-load and bottomed out the lifters or your pushrods are too short.
the rocker will 'feel' like it is way too loose to be at 0 lash if you follow vhp's instructions. i had to adjust mine 3-4 times before i got it pretty close to right. i like you, was setting too much initial pre-load and then starting the adjustment procedure.
try using a .001" feeler guage in between the tip of the valve stem and the rocker's roller tip. start tightening the nut and stop when you feel resistance when trying to move the feeler guage. this should get you in the ballpark.
the rocker will 'feel' like it is way too loose to be at 0 lash if you follow vhp's instructions. i had to adjust mine 3-4 times before i got it pretty close to right. i like you, was setting too much initial pre-load and then starting the adjustment procedure.
try using a .001" feeler guage in between the tip of the valve stem and the rocker's roller tip. start tightening the nut and stop when you feel resistance when trying to move the feeler guage. this should get you in the ballpark.
02-25-2006, 05:37 AM
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I don't know what cylinder heads you have, but it almost sounds like your pushrods are too short. I know Vinci supplies a .100 longer pushrod for AFR heads for the exact reason you're stating. They don't want the rocker resting on the base of the stud.
When I adjusted mine, I used a small screwdriver to gently lift each rocker. I would GENTLY finger tighten the nut until I couldn't lift the rocker any more. I mean we are talking about a hair difference between being able to lift the rocker or not! Do this for each rocker, then turn the motor over. Adjust again. GENTLE IS THE WORD. It probably took 6 or 7 motor crank overs until the rockers were all just barely "non-liftable" (remember, some of them will obviously feel real tight since they are pushing down on the valves, that's why you keep turning the motor over, so you get to all 16 rockers when they are not pushing on the valve). AT THIS POINT, ALL ROCKERS ARE AT ZERO LASH.
Now, you start the 1/4 turn process. Each 1/4 turn is worth .015 of preload. I measured this with a dial indicator. If you are using stock lifters or Comp 850's, do 1/4 for each rocker 7 times, then tighten the lock screw and do 1 final 1/8 turn of both the adjusting nut and lock screw.
When I adjusted mine, I used a small screwdriver to gently lift each rocker. I would GENTLY finger tighten the nut until I couldn't lift the rocker any more. I mean we are talking about a hair difference between being able to lift the rocker or not! Do this for each rocker, then turn the motor over. Adjust again. GENTLE IS THE WORD. It probably took 6 or 7 motor crank overs until the rockers were all just barely "non-liftable" (remember, some of them will obviously feel real tight since they are pushing down on the valves, that's why you keep turning the motor over, so you get to all 16 rockers when they are not pushing on the valve). AT THIS POINT, ALL ROCKERS ARE AT ZERO LASH.
Now, you start the 1/4 turn process. Each 1/4 turn is worth .015 of preload. I measured this with a dial indicator. If you are using stock lifters or Comp 850's, do 1/4 for each rocker 7 times, then tighten the lock screw and do 1 final 1/8 turn of both the adjusting nut and lock screw.
02-25-2006, 03:11 PM
#14
What is the rest of your setup? I agree with the others, if the parts are all correct, then you haven't set the zero lash correctly. Back off on all of them.
Also, I think that 2 turns it too much. I would only go one turn and then tighten the jam nut and then tighten the two together as the instructions state.
Also, I think that 2 turns it too much. I would only go one turn and then tighten the jam nut and then tighten the two together as the instructions state.
02-25-2006, 04:12 PM
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Just my $.02 and I know this is questioning what should be obvious, but do you have the round side of the fulcrum facing down and the flat side up? That's the way it should be. If you have the flat side down and the round side up, you would definitely have problems!
02-25-2006, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by QuietTahoe
Just my $.02 and I know this is questioning what should be obvious, but do you have the round side of the fulcrum facing down and the flat side up? That's the way it should be. If you have the flat side down and the round side up, you would definitely have problems!
Check this out like Quiet said and make sure that you have the flat part up for the nut that screws onto the stud.
If this is Ok then its definatly a lash issue.
02-25-2006, 05:39 PM
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Guys, firstly thank you for your collective assistance... I'm still trying to sort through my problem. Yes, the flat side of the fulcrum is definitely up! I got 7.25" pushrods with the 1.8s. I'm told they come standard with the kit.
I've definitely followed the procedure correctly when I originally set the rockers finger tight. It's just the preload part that scared me... I don't have 6-8 1/4 turns in it even though I allowed 15 mins (minimum) between turns. I actually etched the base of each of the rockers due to bottoming out over the studs and riding over the guideplates!
I am listening to your collective opinion but having already etched the base of the rockers, I'm not confident in following the (revised) installation instructions. I note that some people have also had problems initially... where did they also go wrong?
What I might do this time is set the rockers up so that they lightly touch on the pushrod before giving them 2 separate 1/4 turns. Yes, ONLY 2 1/4 turns (half a full turn) preload as I think its counter productive to go any more. I'm being ultra conservative this time round... and hoping I haven't damaged anything.
I will update you on my progress. Thanks again.
Yes, the flat side of the fulcrum is definitely up! I got 7.25" pushrods with the 1.8s. I'm told they come standard with the kit. I've definitely followed the procedure correctly when I originally set the rockers finger tight. It's just the preload part that scared me... I don't have 6-8 1/4 turns in it even though I allowed 15 mins (minimum) between turns. I actually etched the base of each of the rockers due to bottoming out over the studs and riding over the guideplates!
I am listening to your collective opinion but having already etched the base of the rockers, I'm not confident in following the (revised) installation instructions. I note that some people have also had problems initially... where did they also go wrong?
What I might do this time is set the rockers up so that they lightly touch on the pushrod before giving them 2 separate 1/4 turns. Yes, ONLY 2 1/4 turns (half a full turn) preload as I think its counter productive to go any more. I'm being ultra conservative this time round... and hoping I haven't damaged anything.
I will update you on my progress. Thanks again.
Last edited by SSbaby; 02-25-2006 at 05:44 PM.
02-25-2006, 07:40 PM
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Hey Guys... it's humble old me again
I think I'm going to have to concede that I haven't set the lash adjustments correctly. In fact, I might have been unknowingly setting my preload during the lash adjustment part of the installation. I didn't realise the pushrods were so springy as a result of its motion within the lifters... or have I damaged my lifters?
Blame it on my poor mechanical eptitude and 'newbieness'. I just hope I haven't done any damage but it might be a forlorn hope.
Will update my progress as I go along... just to help out other newbies learn from my mistakes.
I think I'm going to have to concede that I haven't set the lash adjustments correctly. In fact, I might have been unknowingly setting my preload during the lash adjustment part of the installation. I didn't realise the pushrods were so springy as a result of its motion within the lifters... or have I damaged my lifters?
Blame it on my poor mechanical eptitude and 'newbieness'. I just hope I haven't done any damage but it might be a forlorn hope.
Will update my progress as I go along... just to help out other newbies learn from my mistakes.
02-26-2006, 08:47 AM
#20
The key here is to be very gentle in finding the zero lash point. Just lift the roller end and rotate the nut until there is no more "tick tick". It will move side to side. Don't use the twist the pushrod in the fingers approach. The car will run with only 1/2 turn, but it may be noisy. But it will at least confirm everything is OK.