jatolbert

Well I have, and let me tell you, tons of issues so far. Hopfully its just me not seeing the easy way around it.

Water pump wont work (wont clear belt drive), cam position sensor wont work (no tabs on cam pulley for sensor to read and no mounting location for sensor), and now . . . oil system wont work. Only way around that I see is install a true dry sump system with external pump ($$$$$). Stock LS7 oil pump will not work as the belt drive is in the way! Additionally, the bottom flange of the belt drive housing covers the oil ports in the oil pan so there is little way around it other than the aforementioned dry sump system. AND, now that the block has been machined, seems improbable to go back with normal timing set.

If anyone has successfully installed the belt drive on the RHS, please let me know how you got around these issues. Right now it looks like in addition to paying the rather high price for the belt drive and paying for the block to be machined (which I wasnt aware of until the engine was in machine shop), I must pay for remote water pump setup and true dry sump setup.

You would think that at a minimum, Jesel would have mentioned these things when I ordered or was talking to them about it.

If you have had these problems, please let me know what you did. Open to all suggestions!

Thanks,
Josh

KCS

iTrader: (20)

You will have those problems on any LSx block, not just the RHS. You can do an external wet sump pump if you don't want to go to a dry sump, but you will likely have to go with a belt-driven distributor if the RHS block does not have a provision in the back of the block like the GEN III blocks. You could use a set of spacers to clear the water pump though.

As always, its your responsibility to know what works in your combination and what won't. It's not their responsibility. Their catalog even says:

NOTE: ENGINE BLOCK MUST BE MACHINED TO ACCEPT BELT DRIVE COVER

REQUIRES CONVERSION TO DRY SUMP OR EXTERNAL WET SUMP OILING SYSTEM.

JS01

iTrader: (10)

Anyone using a belt drive would normally have a dry sump and external water pump anyways.

CAMSTER

iTrader: (10)

I feel for you man, this thing just don't happen to couch potatoes or people seating at the penitentiary, so don't feel too bad, i have learned more straying out of my way than staying within the initial intended course, GL David.

jatolbert

While you are correct that, in general, it is the purchasers job to make sure that the parts will work, it is ALSO true that the manufacturers/retailers (in this case both were Jesel directly) are obligated to make sure that the customer is well aware of the benefits and disadvantages of the product.

I have some problems with what they did.

First, I never saw their catalog or anything. I simply called them, told them what I was doing and they said the belt drive would work. They didnt state or even imply that it wasnt bolt-on.

Second, yeah it says "Requires conversion to dry sump or external wet sump oiling system" but I have dry sump. LS7 dry sump. Does it not seem reasonable that one could think that they meant that any LS that didnt have dry sump (LS1, LS2, LS3 and LS6) would need to be upgraded to LS7 dry sump or other aftermarket dry sump. It NEVER says AFTERMARKET dry sump, just dry sump. Additionally, if I were to upgrade to one of the most common LS dry sump kits (such as ARE kits for LS7) that still uses stock oil pump, it STILL would not work. There should be more detail and emphasis put on the fact that it request specific aftermarket dry sump oiling system.


I posted to get suggestions, not to get blamed. Yes, had I been more familiar with LS engines and not used to SBC, I may have been able to figure it out prior to this stage but it is something that still should be disclosed open and CLEARLY to the customer. I now have a $25K-$30K engine (not at all an exaggeration, RHS Block, Callies Crank, CP Pistons, Carrillo Rods, Lunati High RPM Lifters, Comp High Tech push rods, T&D rockers, MAST 305cc LS7 12 deg heads, FAST 102 intake, MSD coils, Nick Williams TB, 3K in machine work and on and on) and I cant use it without investing another 3K-5K that I had not budgeted for.

I really feel that this is mostly deceptive marketing, not poor planning on my part. This it the type of thing that looses customers and gets companies sued. Have you ever wondered why on commercials it specifically says "batteries not included" or "some assembly required". With how much money companies pay for commercials, why in the hell would they take the time to say that when they could put it in the fine print. Because sometime, somewhere, they got sued for not making it clear to the customer.

All of this said, I would be perfectly fine if I could just return it and put stock timing set on and all that, but the block was machined before I was made aware of the other problems. Now, Im in a tough spot. But guess its all my fault, right??

I hope you dont think that I am upset with you or whatever, just upset in general. Looking for suggestions. My plan is to space out water pump and hope that I dont have to space out power steering pump, alternator and possibly crank pulley. Since I am running electric water pump with large flat idler pulley instead of grooved pulley, I dont think I will have to space out the other stuff.

Also, gotta design and machine a custom reluctor wheel for the cam position sensor. Not going with distributor as I dont want to loose OEM ECM engine management and coils. Gonna get the stock ECM working, just gonna take some work.


It does have dry sump stock and an $900 55gpm Mezeire electric water pump (not remote, why would it be?). This is not substandard equipment. Its not like I was running crap. I know what your are saying, and agree to a point, and I apologize if I am coming across wrong. I just really feel like I got screwed, not because of the product, but because of the failure to warn. There should have been big warning in box before installation. Kinda like when you buy some camshafts and stuff that say "CHECK VALVE TO PISTON CLEARANCE!!" Anyway, not trying to change your opinion, just looking for suggestions.


Thanks. I have definitely learned a lot. I now designing a way to use an aftermarket (designed and manufactured by myself) dry sump system and retain A/C. Should be fun. So, you are definitely on base in that I will certainly learn a lot.

Josh

Kx69

iTrader: (2)

This is the equivalent of ordering a 4.25 stroke crank for your block and complaining that it had to be balanced, (and not with any old metal but expensive Mallory) then being shocked that you would need different rods and pistons than what comes in a stock LS-7.

None of those warnings came with my crank; I guess the crankshaft companies are out to get us too.

jatolbert

Hmm, not sure how you see this to be the same. Lots of differences.

First, when you order a 4.25" stroke crank, you order it specifically to change the geometric sizes of the rotating assembly. When you order an "upgraded" timing set, it seems reasonable to think that you are just changing the timing set. Kinda like going to gear drive or something. Wouldn't think that you would have to completely re-do oiling system, ECM sensor controls, water pump and machine the block.

Second, if someone was in the situation you mentioned and didnt like it, they can always take the the crank back and go a different route.

I think it would be more apples-to-apples that if you called a crank manufacturer and told them you were building a 427. 4.00" stroke engine in an LSX GMPP block. They recommend a crank and you buy it. You take the crank and block to be line bored and fitted. You get a call from the machine shop telling you that the main journals must be bored out way more than for a stock LS crank for the crank to fit. You think, "what the hell". So you call the crank manufacturer and they say, "yeah thats normal" and give you no other warnings of any problems you are going to have down the line. Obviously if you call them to ask about the machining, they know you didnt know that ahead of time and probably dont know of any other issues. Anyway, you think its unusual to have to machine the block for a crank to fit other than line boring, but you go ahead and get the block bored out. Then you bring the machine shop the rods and pistons to have the assembly balanced and installed. They call you to tell you the the rod journals are way too small and they cant use bearings to take it up. So you call the crank manufacturer again and they say, "yeah, it says in our catalog that you must buy custom made rods".

Now you have altered the block where there is little way to go back. Now you must spend thousands of dollars on custom rods. This is something that should be in a warning when you buy the crank. "USE OF THIS CRANKSHAFT REQUIRES BLOCK MODIFICATION AND CUSTOM CONNECTING RODS". Let me tell you, let something like this happen and there will be some serious issues. This is not something that should be shoved in a catalog somewhere, but stamped on the front of the box or something.

Think what you want, think its my fault, but unless you have used the Jesel belt drive before, how in the hell are you supposed to know this. I took it to one of the most reputable engine builder companies in the southeast, (In Atlanta, I'm quite sure that most of you have heard of them) and they didnt know until they went to install it.

Anyway, Im not here to convince anyone that it is or isnt my fault, but merely to look for suggestions on the cheapest way to do dry sump. Also, to warn others about the Jesel issues. The product is a good product itself, just requires lots of work and $$$ that isnt made clear to the purchaser at time of purchase.

Please post with suggestions. Not sarcasm, criticism or placing blame. This is enough of a pain in my *** without the additional crap. If you think its my fault, fine. How do I fix "my" screw up?

Thanks,
Josh

KCS

iTrader: (20)

As a suggestion, you may need to do more research before purchasing parts. The manufacturers really can not educate every person that calls and even then, you're more than likely talking to a salesperson, so they're not exactly the best people to rely on for technical information. This is why forums like LS1tech.com exist in the first place.

Second, I looked at an RHS block last night and there is a provision in the rear of the block to use an OEM cam sensor there rather than in the timing cover. This is how the older Gen III engines placed the cam sensor and you should be able to do the same. You do not have to machine some custom reluctor for the cam gear.

Kx69

iTrader: (2)

Well on the bright side there are some pretty cool dry sump systems out there, take a look @ peterson.

jatolbert

Haha. Thats a good way to look at it! I havent looked at peterson. Have found some cool setups though. Just trying to keep A/C and power steering. Yes, I am crazy enough to try to keep those. Think I have found some solutions but kinda costly. Guess thats the way it goes.

Josh

t/a98

iTrader: (6)

Don't have much to add, but if you have spent 30k on your engine, ditch the msd coils. Please research them as they are much worse than stock coils and can cause misfires. I believe they have even documented blown engines because of severe misfires... Something to do with the dwell not matching what the Computer wants to tell them. but I'm no expert, Don't take my word just read about them on the site and make your own decision. Good luck sounds like a killer build..

t/a98

iTrader: (6)

Ps what are you putting this in? One day in the near future I want to put an order in for a factory five gtm and build a crazy motor like this for it.

jatolbert

You are correct. MSD was having lots of issues with the coils. They redesigned them and I had to wait on them on back order for over 3-1/2 months while they were being manufactured. They are a new design and are supposed to fix the issue. We will see. If they dont work, I have stock LS7 coils that I can put in very easily.

jatolbert

2006 Z06. Twin Turbo. Currently have twin GT3582Rs but not sure they are going to ultimately be big enough (to get me above 20 PSI if I even need it that high). Should get me to 1100+ rwhp though. . . I hope.

jatolbert

I thought I responded to this. Guess I didnt. Thanks for the suggestion but I dont think that will work. Rear sensor reads off of cam directly for Gen III with 2X signal. This will not work with my setup (I dont think). I am running LS7 computer and thus 58X crank wheel. Therefore, I must run 4X cam reluctor wheel. Therefore, I still have to design and manufacture a reluctor wheel and fabricate the bracket for the sensor as I am likely stuck with using front location for cam sensor. Not a huge deal though. Oiling is much larger concern. But I appreciate the suggestion. If you see a way of me using rear location, please let me know.

Josh

87silverbullet

iTrader: (11)

Look around a bit, I think there are conversion boxes to run the cam signal the way you want. Also, maybe get ahold of HPtuners and they might be able to redo the file for the cam signal to make it work for your pcm. Just a thought.

Whistler

iTrader: (46)

Is there a reason you need to run the belt drive and cannot simply put a chain on the engine to move forward?

87silverbullet

iTrader: (11)

He had the block modified to fit the Jesel drive so he can't go back to a chain and put a regular front cover.

Whistler

iTrader: (46)

Ah.. I just re-read the above and saw that
What does the modified area of the block look like now?

jatolbert

Ive looked into that. Problem is that I havent found a way for computer to accept 2X cam signal and get it to work with 58X and there is no way to convert 2X signal into 4X signal. It is conceivable to covert 4X signal to a 2X signal, but not the other way around which is obviously the way I need to do so. I will certainly keep looking. I feel I can get the stock sensor to work. Just will require some machining and fabrication. Thanks for the suggestion.

Basically the same except the cavity where the timing set goes is larger. Problem is that when you do that, you have to machine right through a oil galley.



You can see oil galley machined in bottom right hand corner of pic. This is where the oil pump is supposed to mate up and supply oil to the engine