Erl dry sleeved blocks any stronger than stock ls3 block?
08-08-2015, 12:52 PM
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Erl dry sleeved blocks any stronger than stock ls3 block? I was looking to get my ls3 dry sleeved by erl so I can have the benefits of getting a bigger bore to get ls7 heads and simply have a stronger block. This way I can keep the lightweight aluminum block instead of getting the heavy lsx block. I know that stock ls3 blocks have handled any where from boosted 800rwhp to close to 1000rwhp. I'm sure the 1000 is pushing the limits but still the dry sleeve from erl shows it could hold between 600-800 and I also think that's at the flywheel not at the wheels. Are they just being extremely conservative with their numbers. If I get my block dry sleeved by them will my block be any stronger than the stock ls3 block. Will it be able to handle as much if not more boost than the stock ls3 block? Anybody have rwhp numbers showing the strength of the erl's dry sleeved blocks?
08-08-2015, 03:52 PM
#3
Liners are close to three times the strength of the stock liner. Add to that the precision machine work to the block and a forged rotating assembly and you have the makings for a lot of power potential. I believe the ratings are very conservative and it's not the block being rated but the rotating assembly in it that draws the rating. If you're uncomfortable with that rating then just up the ante to a better cranks and rods. Are you going boosted or NA and if boosted turbo, centri, or PD? This will have to be factored as well.
Bottom line, ERL makes some good stuff and is in some of the very fastest LS cars out there.
Bottom line, ERL makes some good stuff and is in some of the very fastest LS cars out there.
08-08-2015, 04:12 PM
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Liners are close to three times the strength of the stock liner. Add to that the precision machine work to the block and a forged rotating assembly and you have the makings for a lot of power potential. I believe the ratings are very conservative and it's not the block being rated but the rotating assembly in it that draws the rating. If you're uncomfortable with that rating then just up the ante to a better cranks and rods. Are you going boosted or NA and if boosted turbo, centri, or PD? This will have to be factored as well.
Bottom line, ERL makes some good stuff and is in some of the very fastest LS cars out there.
Bottom line, ERL makes some good stuff and is in some of the very fastest LS cars out there.
It definitely mentions just the block can handle that much. I do plan to boost it at some point. I'd still think the dry sleeve block, even if it's not the superdeck version, should be much stronger than the stock ls3 block whether boosted or not. Stock ls3 blocks have handled plenty of boost for more than 800rwhp. That 600-800hp just has me a bit nervous.
08-08-2015, 04:59 PM
#5
Launching!
ERL is being conservative discussing block capability for stock sleeve and dry sleeve.....
On their stock sleeve short blocks they say "Block Designed for Power Levels below 600HP"
On their standard dry sleeve blocks they say "Block Designed for Power levels between 600HP and 800HP"
If I were to build a 4.125" bore LS for a boosted application I would be using a ductile iron dry sleeve (wet sleeve is another option). Hell, even NA I'd do a re-sleeve.
Ductile iron is far superior to cast iron. Basic metallurgy really.
On their stock sleeve short blocks they say "Block Designed for Power Levels below 600HP"
On their standard dry sleeve blocks they say "Block Designed for Power levels between 600HP and 800HP"
If I were to build a 4.125" bore LS for a boosted application I would be using a ductile iron dry sleeve (wet sleeve is another option). Hell, even NA I'd do a re-sleeve.
Ductile iron is far superior to cast iron. Basic metallurgy really.
Last edited by FLYZNTN; 08-09-2015 at 10:51 AM.
08-08-2015, 06:35 PM
#6
Erl dry sleeved blocks any stronger than stock ls3 block?
Originally Posted by djm_e22
http://www.erlperformance.com/produc...locks-domestic
It definitely mentions just the block can handle that much. I do plan to boost it at some point. I'd still think the dry sleeve block, even if it's not the superdeck version, should be much stronger than the stock ls3 block whether boosted or not. Stock ls3 blocks have handled plenty of boost for more than 800rwhp. That 600-800hp just has me a bit nervous.
It definitely mentions just the block can handle that much. I do plan to boost it at some point. I'd still think the dry sleeve block, even if it's not the superdeck version, should be much stronger than the stock ls3 block whether boosted or not. Stock ls3 blocks have handled plenty of boost for more than 800rwhp. That 600-800hp just has me a bit nervous.
08-08-2015, 07:23 PM
#7
Wouldn't the better liners potentially has less blowby ?
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08-08-2015, 07:38 PM
#8
08-09-2015, 10:43 AM
#10
Ductile Iron vs Cast Iron
Ductile iron and cast iron are used in the metal industry on an everyday basis. However, the two alloys have different characteristics which results in them being used for various purposes.
Ductile Iron
Ductile iron was firstly created during the mid 1940’s by Keith Millis through incorporating the ferrous alloy with magnesium treatment. This shows the structural alteration of graphite, since in the development of this material, the graphite creates spherical nodules which restricts the development of fissures thereby resulting in increased malleability. It is usually utilized as a water main pipe due to its durability and resistance to corrosion.
Cast Iron
Cast iron has a vast range of properties that are being cast into shape as opposed to being formed. Its production consists of re-melting pig iron and steel scrap and adding different alloys in it during the procedure. Some of those that are added are carbon and silicon. It usually contains high amount of silicon in addition to the already high carbon content. Sulfur and manganese are also added to provide strength and solidity to the metal.
Difference between Ductile Iron and Cast Iron
Cast iron is usually used for engineering and construction structures because of its stability, while ductile iron is utilized for water pipes due to its durability. Ductile iron is a newer material which is more favored, not just in terms for a water pipe fixture but also for engine parts such as crankshafts and connecting rods, plus various brakes and steering components due to its strength, reliability and flexibility. Their main difference lies in the presence of graphite, since it causes cracks, which softens the alloy, it is an important component for ductile iron but in the case of cast iron, it is eliminated.
We see these materials each day, though a regular person might not know the difference. The important thing is that they are made for a purpose and that they provide the needed support that they are developed for in the first place.
In brief:
• Cast iron is usually used for engineering and construction structures because of its stability, while ductile iron is utilized for water pipes due to its durability.
• Ductile iron is a newer material which is more favored, not just in terms for a water pipe fixture but also for engine parts such as crankshafts and connecting rods, plus various brakes and steering components due to its strength, reliability and flexibility.
08-09-2015, 10:48 AM
#11
Millenium Z06,
so basically you are saying RED and ERL are using turned down/machined sewer pipes for their liners. RIGHT?
lol. JK
so basically you are saying RED and ERL are using turned down/machined sewer pipes for their liners. RIGHT?
lol. JK
08-09-2015, 10:58 AM
#12
Launching!
"Ductile iron consists of iron, carbon, silicon, manganese, magnesium, phosphorous and sulphur. Tin and copper are also sometimes found. Ductile iron also consists of nodular graphite, which gives it flexibility. Cast iron mainly consists of carbon and silicon."
The aforementioned malleability\flexibility may be the most beneficial aspect of ductile iron when talking about sleeve material.
It can be mercilessly abused without cracking.
08-09-2015, 11:31 AM
#13
LOL, yeah, I've got 8 sewer pipe liners in my ERL block. As for the ratings, the block isn't the weak link, its the rotating assembly. ERL rates there bottom ends for saftey (for them) mine makes almost 700 fwhp and i'm about to spray 200 more. I called them and asked just to be sure and got an unofficial 1100 flywheel before I need to worry.
08-09-2015, 12:13 PM
#14
Millenium Z06 has this covered but I'll add:
"Ductile iron consists of iron, carbon, silicon, manganese, magnesium, phosphorous and sulphur. Tin and copper are also sometimes found. Ductile iron also consists of nodular graphite, which gives it flexibility. Cast iron mainly consists of carbon and silicon."
The aforementioned malleability\flexibility may be the most beneficial aspect of ductile iron when talking about sleeve material.
It can be mercilessly abused without cracking.
"Ductile iron consists of iron, carbon, silicon, manganese, magnesium, phosphorous and sulphur. Tin and copper are also sometimes found. Ductile iron also consists of nodular graphite, which gives it flexibility. Cast iron mainly consists of carbon and silicon."
The aforementioned malleability\flexibility may be the most beneficial aspect of ductile iron when talking about sleeve material.
It can be mercilessly abused without cracking.
Agreed, however the real advantage of re-sleeving is that the machining process, assuming you are using a good machine shop, means that potentially you could also end up with a Blue-printed block, with uniform sleeve thickness's, plus line -honed mains and cam tunnels, and decked square and true, and that makes an excellent foundation for a good rotating assembly.
I would use Darton's Ductile iron sleeve's simply because they have a proven product.
08-09-2015, 07:53 PM
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ERL has a outside foundry cast the ductile iron blanks but does all machining of their sleeves in house with exacting tolerances and tireless quality control. Nothing against Darton sleeves but the change was made from using Darton sleeves as well as being Darton East over 8 years ago for many reasons but quality/machine tolerances were at the top of a list. Just my 2 cents again but Darton dry sleeves are far less prone to sinking/leaking like their MID's. If the MID's are as off as usual, the required amount (almost all!) of the casting is removed for there installation and the chance of issues is quite high even if done properly. ERL has a patented design on their sleeves and stands behind the quality of their products as well as any product used in an engine built by them. Quality of the products sent to customers is number one. Bottom line is if an ERL block/build has an issue and it is determined to be a product or part failure it is taken care of in most cases. And since I didn't directly say it, OP yes I think a ERL sleeved block is far stronger than a factory LS3. 6-Bolt if you want over the top!!! Just my opinion again though....
Last edited by EMpowerd3; 08-09-2015 at 08:01 PM.
08-09-2015, 09:01 PM
#16
ERL has a outside foundry cast the ductile iron blanks but does all machining of their sleeves in house with exacting tolerances and tireless quality control. Nothing against Darton sleeves but the change was made from using Darton sleeves as well as being Darton East over 8 years ago for many reasons but quality/machine tolerances were at the top of a list. Just my 2 cents again but Darton dry sleeves are far less prone to sinking/leaking like their MID's. If the MID's are as off as usual, the required amount (almost all!) of the casting is removed for there installation and the chance of issues is quite high even if done properly. ERL has a patented design on their sleeves and stands behind the quality of their products as well as any product used in an engine built by them. Quality of the products sent to customers is number one. Bottom line is if an ERL block/build has an issue and it is determined to be a product or part failure it is taken care of in most cases. And since I didn't directly say it, OP yes I think a ERL sleeved block is far stronger than a factory LS3. 6-Bolt if you want over the top!!! Just my opinion again though....
08-09-2015, 10:00 PM
#17
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There are always issues with some blocks and builds. If you had an issue with the quality of a build or machine work it could have been taken care of if taken through the proper methods. Again all work is backed, the vast majority have very positive results and are pushing the limits of ERL products. Only the tightest standards are held but nothing and no one is perfect. Again any issues with quality can be resolved if done properly. I can assure anyone that all matters of machining, building and measuring are done properly with state of the art equipment as well as trained personnel.
08-10-2015, 12:02 AM
#18
There are always issues with some blocks and builds. If you had an issue with the quality of a build or machine work it could have been taken care of if taken through the proper methods. Again all work is backed, the vast majority have very positive results and are pushing the limits of ERL products. Only the tightest standards are held but nothing and no one is perfect. Again any issues with quality can be resolved if done properly. I can assure anyone that all matters of machining, building and measuring are done properly with state of the art equipment as well as trained personnel.
Admirable comments but I think even you will agree your comments are somewhat biased. I researched my options for my 400ci 4.185 bore Gen4 engine block, and choose to work with Steve at RED, because he actually does the work himself. I went with the MID system because it's a very common European solution and still used by the likes of Ferrari etc. As a mechanical engineer, I like the principal of the MID's loaded bank, plus its obvious thermal efficiency so choose to go that route.
Steve is a one man band, and a highly experienced one at that, the only downside with working with Steve is he over loaded with work so you have to be prepared to wait. I made that decision and I am very happy that I did. I didn't get Steve to fully Blue-print the block as my engine builder has all the good line honing and hot honing gear in house, so I also saved a bunch of time, and made my engine builder happy at the same time.
Cheers,
Mark.
08-10-2015, 07:37 AM
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Hi EM,
Admirable comments but I think even you will agree your comments are somewhat biased. I researched my options for my 400ci 4.185 bore Gen4 engine block, and choose to work with Steve at RED, because he actually does the work himself. I went with the MID system because it's a very common European solution and still used by the likes of Ferrari etc. As a mechanical engineer, I like the principal of the MID's loaded bank, plus its obvious thermal efficiency so choose to go that route.
Steve is a one man band, and a highly experienced one at that, the only downside with working with Steve is he over loaded with work so you have to be prepared to wait. I made that decision and I am very happy that I did. I didn't get Steve to fully Blue-print the block as my engine builder has all the good line honing and hot honing gear in house, so I also saved a bunch of time, and made my engine builder happy at the same time.
Cheers,
Mark.
Admirable comments but I think even you will agree your comments are somewhat biased. I researched my options for my 400ci 4.185 bore Gen4 engine block, and choose to work with Steve at RED, because he actually does the work himself. I went with the MID system because it's a very common European solution and still used by the likes of Ferrari etc. As a mechanical engineer, I like the principal of the MID's loaded bank, plus its obvious thermal efficiency so choose to go that route.
Steve is a one man band, and a highly experienced one at that, the only downside with working with Steve is he over loaded with work so you have to be prepared to wait. I made that decision and I am very happy that I did. I didn't get Steve to fully Blue-print the block as my engine builder has all the good line honing and hot honing gear in house, so I also saved a bunch of time, and made my engine builder happy at the same time.
Cheers,
Mark.