650hp N/a On Pump Gas ???
10-25-2008, 12:32 AM
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650hp N/a On Pump Gas ??? I'm looking to up the power in my current motor that is in my 69 Camaro that is in my sig. The engine dyno showed 527hp at the crank but with my calculations it shows that I am making 470hp to the wheels to go 11.4@119 in a 3600lb car. So I'm thinking that I'm making a little more than 527hp at the crank. Here is what I have: a stock 6.0 bottom end with ARP 2000 rod bolt installed. Pistons are out of the hole.015 and with a .060 head gasket and 65cc ported 243 heads; I'm coming up with 10.77 to 1. I am running stock rockers with Comp cam 234/238 598/605 lift with 115+4 lobe seperation and CTSV race lifters. My ported 243's flow 330's at 650 lift on the intake. All this is breathing through a ProSystems carb.
My question is- What would you change in this combo to have a 650HP motor on 93 octane pump gas?
I was thinking about milling the heads and intalling a GM MLS heads gasket with a .051 thickness to bump up my compression to 12 to 1.
Is 12 to 1 to high for 93 octane on a steel block with a aluminum heads?
Do I need a more agressive cam ?
I am looking for a very streetable combo. I drove my current setup for 75-90 minute trips a ton of times with 3.73's and a turbo400. It ran like a Cadilac and returned a decent 18mpg. Should I just leave everything alone and be happy with my current combo? Or do I let the winter season gremlins get to my hunger for more power?
What are your suggestions?
My question is- What would you change in this combo to have a 650HP motor on 93 octane pump gas?
I was thinking about milling the heads and intalling a GM MLS heads gasket with a .051 thickness to bump up my compression to 12 to 1.
Is 12 to 1 to high for 93 octane on a steel block with a aluminum heads?
Do I need a more agressive cam ?
I am looking for a very streetable combo. I drove my current setup for 75-90 minute trips a ton of times with 3.73's and a turbo400. It ran like a Cadilac and returned a decent 18mpg. Should I just leave everything alone and be happy with my current combo? Or do I let the winter season gremlins get to my hunger for more power?
What are your suggestions?
10-25-2008, 08:28 AM
#4
bigger cubes. Heres and example: Tony Mamo put together a solid roller 383 and made 545 at the wheels in his Vette. Fbody's have about 17-19% loss through the drivetrain so your looking at about 540 at the wheels if you have 650 at the crank.
You either need a power add or to stroke that and make it a 408, then you can have the power your looking for and it will be in a more usable form.
You could get over 500 at the wheels with an extreme top end setup but it wont be as street friendly as more cubes.
You either need a power add or to stroke that and make it a 408, then you can have the power your looking for and it will be in a more usable form.
You could get over 500 at the wheels with an extreme top end setup but it wont be as street friendly as more cubes.
10-25-2008, 03:08 PM
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bigger cubes. Heres and example: Tony Mamo put together a solid roller 383 and made 545 at the wheels in his Vette. Fbody's have about 17-19% loss through the drivetrain so your looking at about 540 at the wheels if you have 650 at the crank.
You either need a power add or to stroke that and make it a 408, then you can have the power your looking for and it will be in a more usable form.
You could get over 500 at the wheels with an extreme top end setup but it wont be as street friendly as more cubes.
You either need a power add or to stroke that and make it a 408, then you can have the power your looking for and it will be in a more usable form.
You could get over 500 at the wheels with an extreme top end setup but it wont be as street friendly as more cubes.
10-25-2008, 04:23 PM
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with more compression and a bigger stick you should be able to squeeze 600 fwhp out of your setup. dcr is what you need to be looking at instead of scr. with 11:5 -12:0 scr and a cam on xfi or xer lobes with duration say similar to the one in my 408 (244/248)should get you there.you'll just have to spin it alittle higher. only down side is you may have ptv issues.
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10-30-2008, 01:14 PM
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Cubes are the easy answer, i have 650 flywheel hp with a L92 equipped 402"
It will run clean to 6800 rpm on 91 octane where its peak power is . To turn 7500 clean i blend race gas, we have not dynoed it with extended rpm range and race gas. Track times indicate close to same hp as my dynos. Car ran 10.36 @127 mph lifting in a bracket race run it est. weighs 3350 with me in it. I have 11.4 to 1 compression with .030"quench distance. I truly believe if i had east coast 93 octane this motor would work all pump gas. If i retard timing 8* to 26* it will turn full range of rpm on 91 octane Chevron gas.
It will run clean to 6800 rpm on 91 octane where its peak power is . To turn 7500 clean i blend race gas, we have not dynoed it with extended rpm range and race gas. Track times indicate close to same hp as my dynos. Car ran 10.36 @127 mph lifting in a bracket race run it est. weighs 3350 with me in it. I have 11.4 to 1 compression with .030"quench distance. I truly believe if i had east coast 93 octane this motor would work all pump gas. If i retard timing 8* to 26* it will turn full range of rpm on 91 octane Chevron gas.
10-30-2008, 04:23 PM
#10
with more compression and a bigger stick you should be able to squeeze 600 fwhp out of your setup. dcr is what you need to be looking at instead of scr. with 11:5 -12:0 scr and a cam on xfi or xer lobes with duration say similar to the one in my 408 (244/248)should get you there.you'll just have to spin it alittle higher. only down side is you may have ptv issues.
It is not the end all and be all of cam specs. There are 50 different ways to get the "dcr" where you "think" you want it. Only 1 best way.
10-30-2008, 04:33 PM
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Cubes are the easy answer, i have 650 flywheel hp with a L92 equipped 402"
It will run clean to 6800 rpm on 91 octane where its peak power is . To turn 7500 clean i blend race gas, we have not dynoed it with extended rpm range and race gas. Track times indicate close to same hp as my dynos. Car ran 10.36 @127 mph lifting in a bracket race run it est. weighs 3350 with me in it. I have 11.4 to 1 compression with .030"quench distance. I truly believe if i had east coast 93 octane this motor would work all pump gas. If i retard timing 8* to 26* it will turn full range of rpm on 91 octane Chevron gas.
It will run clean to 6800 rpm on 91 octane where its peak power is . To turn 7500 clean i blend race gas, we have not dynoed it with extended rpm range and race gas. Track times indicate close to same hp as my dynos. Car ran 10.36 @127 mph lifting in a bracket race run it est. weighs 3350 with me in it. I have 11.4 to 1 compression with .030"quench distance. I truly believe if i had east coast 93 octane this motor would work all pump gas. If i retard timing 8* to 26* it will turn full range of rpm on 91 octane Chevron gas.
For now I think I'm going to just add a larger cam in my current setup and call it a day. I'm probably going to build another stroker over the winter which should net me my 650HP on pump gas with no problems. Like they say " THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"
11-03-2008, 02:08 PM
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What kind of cam specs are you running with that carb application L92 setup? Did you port your GMPP intake? If so then who did it?
For now I think I'm going to just add a larger cam in my current setup and call it a day. I'm probably going to build another stroker over the winter which should net me my 650HP on pump gas with no problems. Like they say " THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"
For now I think I'm going to just add a larger cam in my current setup and call it a day. I'm probably going to build another stroker over the winter which should net me my 650HP on pump gas with no problems. Like they say " THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"
I run stock GM rockers and Cadillac race lifters. Car has run a 1.41 60 ft on 4 year old slicks,it ran 6.53 @103.74 mph 1/8, i truly believe Race gas has changed tuning so i will move timing and jetting around to get more out of it.
It is almost impossible out here in So. Cal to get a open test and tune day at the track, this is very frustrating place for Drag racers!
11-04-2008, 03:51 PM
#13
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
I don't think you are going to find 100 HP N/A. On nitrous you can make whatever you want provided the motor doesn't go boom.
With regards to the cam, I'd look at narrowing up the lobe sep. 115+4 is really wide. Is there a reason you went witha cam like htat. If you are trying to fix a cam's manners by spreading out lobe sep, then you need to decide what you want.
You've got ported 243 heads, so you should be around an 80% I/E ration. So, you are probably right on the 4º split on I/E. I think i'd go down to 110-112 on the lobe sep, ands you can play with your advance.
Alternately, you could do something like shrink the intake lobe a bit but leave yourself enough exhaust duration to keep the motor carrying upstairs. On an SBC that is usually 12-14 degres of split when you have 70-75% I/E. On an LS1 you could do maybe as much as 8-10º split and a narrow sep of 228-230/238-240 on a 107+5.
If you are running a carb which you seem to indicate, you can get away with the loss of vaccum as you will only have about 10"-11" at idle.
On the gaskets, get yourself a quench of .035 or so period. Too much volume in the cylinder with insufficent quench only increases detonation. If you don't have enough volume in the cylinder and compression is to high, using gaskets to fix it is the wrong way to go.
With regards to the cam, I'd look at narrowing up the lobe sep. 115+4 is really wide. Is there a reason you went witha cam like htat. If you are trying to fix a cam's manners by spreading out lobe sep, then you need to decide what you want.
You've got ported 243 heads, so you should be around an 80% I/E ration. So, you are probably right on the 4º split on I/E. I think i'd go down to 110-112 on the lobe sep, ands you can play with your advance.
Alternately, you could do something like shrink the intake lobe a bit but leave yourself enough exhaust duration to keep the motor carrying upstairs. On an SBC that is usually 12-14 degres of split when you have 70-75% I/E. On an LS1 you could do maybe as much as 8-10º split and a narrow sep of 228-230/238-240 on a 107+5.
If you are running a carb which you seem to indicate, you can get away with the loss of vaccum as you will only have about 10"-11" at idle.
On the gaskets, get yourself a quench of .035 or so period. Too much volume in the cylinder with insufficent quench only increases detonation. If you don't have enough volume in the cylinder and compression is to high, using gaskets to fix it is the wrong way to go.
11-04-2008, 04:37 PM
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I don't know what kind of air you are running in and how much the converter is eating up but your not getting anywhere near 500hp out of that motor, more like 470hp.
You need to fix a lot of things on that combo.... stock heads could make more power than that!
Jes
11-06-2008, 09:00 AM
#18
650 fwhp equally high 10s at 127. Not dumping it at end of the track maybe a low .30 and 130 mph ET doesnt fall off dramatically
I did a setup a while ago on a 402 that ran that with some very normal basic stuff at 3700 lbs and definitely wasnt 650 flywheel hp. ATI sliderule calc seems to be relatively accurate at the weights these cars get raced at
I think 650 is about 135
Your 530 flywheel is probably about right, its making maybe 400 on a normal "non-generous" chassis dyno. On ours 400-420 hp rwhp is 120+ mph for example.
With a carb you cant get away with as much compression as injection unless you are very good at getting the mixture good cyl to cyl and across the rpm band.
With a cam/head change I think you could pick up 50-75 without getting silly. The topend we are running in Ashleys has a carb style intake available (ASHWS6 on the NA list) We have one for testing, its supposed to mirror the OEM manifold we run in its power curve very closely
Good solid roller lifters are same $$$ as good hyd lifters, your only a rocker arm set away from going solid, do that and it can turn upper 7000 rpm without alot of the hassle we have to do with the hyd. If you have a smaller motor and enough cylinder head - you can almost make the same power as the bigger engine by turning it harder
I did a setup a while ago on a 402 that ran that with some very normal basic stuff at 3700 lbs and definitely wasnt 650 flywheel hp. ATI sliderule calc seems to be relatively accurate at the weights these cars get raced at
I think 650 is about 135
Your 530 flywheel is probably about right, its making maybe 400 on a normal "non-generous" chassis dyno. On ours 400-420 hp rwhp is 120+ mph for example.
With a carb you cant get away with as much compression as injection unless you are very good at getting the mixture good cyl to cyl and across the rpm band.
With a cam/head change I think you could pick up 50-75 without getting silly. The topend we are running in Ashleys has a carb style intake available (ASHWS6 on the NA list) We have one for testing, its supposed to mirror the OEM manifold we run in its power curve very closely
Good solid roller lifters are same $$$ as good hyd lifters, your only a rocker arm set away from going solid, do that and it can turn upper 7000 rpm without alot of the hassle we have to do with the hyd. If you have a smaller motor and enough cylinder head - you can almost make the same power as the bigger engine by turning it harder
11-06-2008, 09:31 AM
#19
I don't think you are going to find 100 HP N/A. On nitrous you can make whatever you want provided the motor doesn't go boom.
With regards to the cam, I'd look at narrowing up the lobe sep. 115+4 is really wide. Is there a reason you went witha cam like htat. If you are trying to fix a cam's manners by spreading out lobe sep, then you need to decide what you want.
You've got ported 243 heads, so you should be around an 80% I/E ration. So, you are probably right on the 4º split on I/E. I think i'd go down to 110-112 on the lobe sep, ands you can play with your advance.
Alternately, you could do something like shrink the intake lobe a bit but leave yourself enough exhaust duration to keep the motor carrying upstairs. On an SBC that is usually 12-14 degres of split when you have 70-75% I/E. On an LS1 you could do maybe as much as 8-10º split and a narrow sep of 228-230/238-240 on a 107+5.
If you are running a carb which you seem to indicate, you can get away with the loss of vaccum as you will only have about 10"-11" at idle.
On the gaskets, get yourself a quench of .035 or so period. Too much volume in the cylinder with insufficent quench only increases detonation. If you don't have enough volume in the cylinder and compression is to high, using gaskets to fix it is the wrong way to go.
With regards to the cam, I'd look at narrowing up the lobe sep. 115+4 is really wide. Is there a reason you went witha cam like htat. If you are trying to fix a cam's manners by spreading out lobe sep, then you need to decide what you want.
You've got ported 243 heads, so you should be around an 80% I/E ration. So, you are probably right on the 4º split on I/E. I think i'd go down to 110-112 on the lobe sep, ands you can play with your advance.
Alternately, you could do something like shrink the intake lobe a bit but leave yourself enough exhaust duration to keep the motor carrying upstairs. On an SBC that is usually 12-14 degres of split when you have 70-75% I/E. On an LS1 you could do maybe as much as 8-10º split and a narrow sep of 228-230/238-240 on a 107+5.
If you are running a carb which you seem to indicate, you can get away with the loss of vaccum as you will only have about 10"-11" at idle.
On the gaskets, get yourself a quench of .035 or so period. Too much volume in the cylinder with insufficent quench only increases detonation. If you don't have enough volume in the cylinder and compression is to high, using gaskets to fix it is the wrong way to go.
I agree on the lob sep i would go 110-111. still be good with the bottle.
